Minnesota Sports Forum

"I'll try to look at the bright side here. Flip deserves some credit for whatever he's done to encourage Andrew to get to the hoop and draw fouls. That's half the battle in developing elite efficiency and Wiggins has progressively gotten better and better at this."

I've thought this too Q. I have issues with this coaching staff but the amount of trips to the line this team gets is astounding.

@JimPeteHoops: Wolves' 3-point play opps this year: Wiggins 41, Muhammad 21, Dieng 20. NBA leaders: James 62, Cousins 57, Bledsoe 51, Davis 49, Harden 49

That's some good stuff. One of the things that always a legit critisms of Flip's teams in the past was their reliance on jumpers and therefor they didn't get to the line. This team does get to the line and for a big chunk of the season they are Doing it without 3 guys that help you there in Martin Pek and Bazz. It's impressive and the guy Wiggins has become just attacking is pretty nice to see. That's actually a strong positive but it's about the only positive I can come up with.

khans2k5 wrote:The Payne trade bust talk just needs to be parked for now. He has literally no chance at improving this year. He was put in a tougher spot than 90% of rookies have to experience in getting traded mid-rookie season. He's old, but he is still a rookie. He was brought in as a long-term piece so I think it's astoundingly stupid to already call the trade a bust because a rookie sucks in the NBA. Most of them suck. Age doesn't factor into how you adjust to the NBA game. That just takes time that most of you just aren't giving Payne. It's pilling on at this point. At least give him 1 fucking off season with our team before you throw him out on garbage day and call the trade a failure.

I don't know. The guy is playing for a really really crappy team and getting a ton of minutes. That's opportunity... a legit opportunity. So I disagree about the tough spot part. I guess it depends on context.

I'd imagine that he was in a tougher spot, like a lot of rookies not playing at all. I know that he's joining a team midseason. And that the team sucks. And there are no practices. And he's still a rookie. But talent shines through... especially over as much time as he's received.

To go from THIS bad where he might actually show signs of regression to being a legit PF? I don't know. Is it telling that borderline prospects and even D league guys can look better and post better stats and have more impact despite even more tumultuous stops along the way?

I don't know if Payne is a bust. But I will say there's been NOTHING I've seen to tease me into thinking he's a core piece on a good team.

Mikkeman wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:Jeff Adrien was the key to our making the playoffs this season and is another indication of Flip's ineptitude. I don't understand how he couldn't see the enormous potential in this future all-star. The fact that Adrien was subsequently cut by his Chinese team is more evidence of how underappreciated he is.

LST, since you have been rooting heavily for Bennett, you should be one of the biggest fan of Jeff Adrien.

He was one of the few players that could make Bennett look like rather OK player in Minnesota team. Only Rubio/Bennett combination from all two man combinations featuring Bennett had better plus/minus with 0.0 than Adrien/Bennett combination with -1.7. Most of two man combinations featuring Bennett have had plus/minus somewhere between -12 (with Hummel) and -24 (with Thad).

Latter number is probably one reason why Cam and me doesn't like Bennett. Playing with Bennett made Thad's numbers worse. Of course you can say that it was wise verse and that playing with Thad made Bennett's numbers worse. :)

I actually kind of enjoyed watching Adrien...I like gritty, hard-nosed players. But I'm a little amused that he is still a topic of discussion here, as if he actually had a significant impact (positive or negative) on the Wolves this year. There's a reason 5 NBA teams and the Guangdong Tigers have seen Adrien play, and released him...he can't play basketball. I agree that he played better for us this year than Payne and Bennett. But that's not the issue here. As bad as they played this year, Payne and Bennett still have potential to be good NBA players...Adrien does not.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:The Payne trade bust talk just needs to be parked for now. He has literally no chance at improving this year. He was put in a tougher spot than 90% of rookies have to experience in getting traded mid-rookie season. He's old, but he is still a rookie. He was brought in as a long-term piece so I think it's astoundingly stupid to already call the trade a bust because a rookie sucks in the NBA. Most of them suck. Age doesn't factor into how you adjust to the NBA game. That just takes time that most of you just aren't giving Payne. It's pilling on at this point. At least give him 1 fucking off season with our team before you throw him out on garbage day and call the trade a failure.

I don't know. The guy is playing for a really really crappy team and getting a ton of minutes. That's opportunity... a legit opportunity. So I disagree about the tough spot part. I guess it depends on context.

I'd imagine that he was in a tougher spot, like a lot of rookies not playing at all. I know that he's joining a team midseason. And that the team sucks. And there are no practices. And he's still a rookie. But talent shines through... especially over as much time as he's received.

To go from THIS bad where he might actually show signs of regression to being a legit PF? I don't know. Is it telling that borderline prospects and even D league guys can look better and post better stats and have more impact despite even more tumultuous stops along the way?

I don't know if Payne is a bust. But I will say there's been NOTHING I've seen to tease me into thinking he's a core piece on a good team.

He's played 25 games for us this year. Wiggins even struggled through his first 26 games and he is a much better player. How is 25 games considered enough for talent to shine through? He hasn't had 25 horrible games. He's had a couple good games. I think the idea that his 25 game stint with us is enough to put any kind of long-term judgement on him laughable. He's averaging 14 and 10 against the Clippers in 2 games, 12 and 7 against the Rockets, 13 and 9 against Charlotte and 14 and 11 against the Knicks. Those are good games that show what he can do when he plays well. Those are rotation player numbers. That's enough to me where the garbage talk should at the very least be tabled until he gets 1 off season minimum to improve before the trade is deemed a bust.

Fair enough.

I see a 24-year-old player who's looked largely overmatched in his first NBA season. Now, the NBA has a few late bloomers along the way. But, it has many more guys who are what they are... overmatched their entire careers. Especially when they didn't exactly excel in college either.

I saw Wes Johnson mentioned earlier. Like Johnson, Payne arrived "late" to the NBA after only ONE season of good college basketball under his belt.

Call it a coincidence. Or, consider that SOMETHING prevented them from excelling in college which forced them to stay in school longer. Payne will be 25 next season. He still hasn't broken out.

[note: even his d-league stats are underwhelming. he might not be a bust. you're right, we don't know yet. but there's more evidence against him panning out than there is to think it's going to happen at this point...]

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I like to tease Q for his love of Adrien... because the guy is limited in what he can do and is a borderline NBA player.

BUT...

Q is right. What does it say about the Wolves ineptitude that he is probably better than many of the guys the Wolves have sent out there... including the young guys that were traded for in hopes of helping the rebuild: Bennett and Payne?

It's a good debate. Adrien did OK while he was here - but certainly wasn't great. It does provide a measuring stick though for where some of the young guys are right now. Adrien was guy off the street, who can't stick in the NBA. Yet he was statistically better (PER, VORP, Win Shares/48) than most of the young guys we are excited about.

Still, the obvious reason to get excited about the young guys is not what they are doing now. It's what they have the potential of doing with more experience. They are younger, faster, taller, more athletic than Jeff Adrien or anyone they could pick up off the street. From the eyeball test, they should all have better careers than Jeff Adrien. Obviously there are never any guarantees. It's up to them to get better and the coaches to put them in positions to succeed. I do agree with Kahns though - it's tough to put too much stock into what we've seen this year. There have just been too many things out of whack. It looks like there will be only 5 players who will play over 50 games this year for the Wolves (Wiggins, Dieng, LaVine, Budinger and Bennett). There was just not any continuity and guys never settled into roles.

Carlos Danger wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Still, the obvious reason to get excited about the young guys is not what they are doing now. It's what they have the potential of doing with more experience. They are younger, faster, taller, more athletic than Jeff Adrien or anyone they could pick up off the street. From the eyeball test, they should all have better careers than Jeff Adrien. Obviously there are never any guarantees. It's up to them to get better and the coaches to put them in positions to succeed. I do agree with Kahns though - it's tough to put too much stock into what we've seen this year. There have just been too many things out of whack. It looks like there will be only 5 players who will play over 50 games this year for the Wolves (Wiggins, Dieng, LaVine, Budinger and Bennett). There was just not any continuity and guys never settled into roles.

Over/under on the number of times that excuse (as legit as it may or may not be) will be used prior to the beginning of next season by Flip Saunders?

Two reasons why that trade sucked ass.

1. We overpaid like hell. How often do you see successful NBA teams trade a future first rounder away just so they can get a mid-first rounder who was rotting away on a team's bench? Not to mention that the Hawks were looking to unload him anyway to try to acquire a veteran that could help them in the playoffs (Ray Allen, Gary Neal were names thrown around to compliment this thought). And we just limited ourselves in trade flexibility.

Contrary to some on here's beliefs, Payne does not have a high ceiling. He's not a talent like LaVine who's 19, fresh off a 1-and-done year and needs to be developed. Other examples of this could include Archie Goodwin, Terrence Jones, Morris twins, etc. Payne was turning 24 right as the trade went down. He was a four-year guy who didn't produce until his senior year, and even then it was underwhelming in some aspects.

This move made the Chase Budinger trade look like a blockbuster deal, and that's not a good thing. At least Chase had been in the NBA and made a name for himself over three years (not to mention Chase too was 24).

2. Payne is a fucking scrub. Argue that he hasn't played enough, whatever you'd like to. He's just not a basketball player. Similar to Bust Bennett, and Bust Williams, Bust Payne is an athlete; not a basketball player. Has no clue what the hell is going on around him most of the time and routinely puts himself in bad spots, both offensively and defensively. And his "sweet stroke" from the perimeter is putrid. That load-up is ugly and hard to repeat consistently, often times throwing off the shot before it's off his fingers. Let's not even discuss how bad his dribble drive game is, though for some reason, he thinks he's capable.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Over/under on the number of times that excuse (as legit as it may or may not be) will be used prior to the beginning of next season by Flip Saunders?

It will be used a lot - I'm sure. But I think most would agree that playing 25 different players this year was not ideal. Flip will be under more pressure to win next year. But he clearly didn't have any pressure to try and win this year so he used it as an 82 game exhibition season to audition players for next year. And as a bonus - he'll reward Flip the GM with a good draft pick asset.

Simply put, yes it is early to declare if he's a bust of not, but on the other hand, you would like to see something, or at least flashes of some area that you can see can he build on.

Does he show flashes of a low post game? No

does he show flashes of being a good stretch 4? No

Does he have high athleticism? No

does he have a high bball IQ? No

Does he play hard nosed defense? No

The only thing he's really shown is that he was willing to hustle. But lately he really isn't doing that, that much.

If he was 19 or 20 maybe, but the guy is 24.