Minnesota Sports Forum

Regarding LaVine's defense, note that players he guarded in the minutes he played at UCLA shot 25% from the field. That's a big reason Flip was so high on him in the draft. We're also seeing some of the other reasons Flip liked him so much as we see LaVine's beautiful shooting stroke, ball-handling and swagger. Apparently his growth plates still show room for him to grow as much as a couple more inches.

Can someone explain to me why Jabari is considered to be so far ahead of Wiggins on the offensive end? The eye test shows that, but think about this. Wiggins scored almost virtually the same as Jabari in college with half the offensive arsenal. Their shooting percentages were virtually the same (Wiggins was within 3% in every category and was actually a better free throw shooter). Wiggins was actually more efficient than Jabari as he scored more per shot than Jabari. If Wiggins scored about the same as Jabari with half the moves to get the job done, doesn't that show just how much potential he has on that end considering how much more of a finished product Jabari is considered to be? I just don't get how Jabari can be viewed as that much better an offensive player when Wiggins has been on his tail the whole time with less to work with. Everyone is also praising Jabari's passing, but Wiggins actually averaged more assists in college as well. I think Jabari is the better offensive player now, but I'm not sure he is going to be that much better than Wiggins on the scoring sheet at the end of the night which is all that matters. It doesn't matter how you score. It matters how much you score and the stats say Wiggins finds a way to score just as much with the eye test saying he has less to work with.

I will take Wiggins over Parker. I would take Paul George type over Glen Robinson or Carmelo Anthony. Would anyone trade Love for Paul George in a vacuum?

bleedspeed177 wrote:I will take Wiggins over Parker. I would take Paul George type over Glen Robinson or Carmelo Anthony. Would anyone trade Love for Paul George in a vacuum?

Jabari Parker > Andrew Wiggins

Carmelo Anthony > Paul George

Kevin Love > Paul George

So no, I wouldn't trade Love for George if I had the choice, but we're being forced into this situation where we need Wiggins to at least become George. That's where the Wolves are at right now.

lipoli390 wrote:Regarding LaVine's defense, note that players he guarded in the minutes he played at UCLA shot 25% from the field. That's a big reason Flip was so high on him in the draft. We're also seeing some of the other reasons Flip liked him so much as we see LaVine's beautiful shooting stroke, ball-handling and swagger. Apparently his growth plates still show room for him to grow as much as a couple more inches.

Excellent point about LaVine's 1 on 1 defensive stats...the stat surprises me, but the stat is what it is, and quite impressive. I don't think anyone was very impressed with Zach's defense in SL though. I look for Flip and Sam to coach him up in this area.

Q12543 wrote:LST, The "most promising prospect" stuff needs to get thrown out the window for the most part once a kid gets regular D-1 college minutes. Obviously Wiggins was still highly thought of after his year at KU, but let's face it, the bloom has come off a bit. Compare his Freshman year to Kevin Durant, Michael Beasley, or even Eric Gordon. He comes down to earth pretty quickly. KU exposed his limitations as a ball handler, playmaker, and alpha dog scorer.

Look at guys like OJ Mayo, Harrison Barnes, and Shabazz Muhammed. All three were at one point considered high school phenoms that were near consensus #1 picks in mock drafts a year out from their senior years. Yet once they all hit college, their flaws started to show and things cooled off a bit. Yet they were still all drafted too high, mostly because the glow of their high school prospects hadn't faded yet.

Now I'm not suggesting that Wiggins doesn't have more upside than the aforementioned other three guys, but I certainly don't view him the same way I did before KU. It's just very tough to see him become the next NBA superstar.

Q, you make some excellent points as usual. I agree that college performance trumps high school reputation. But I will also point out that while Mayo/Barnes/Shabazz all carried the mantle of best player at their level, none of them were mentioned in the same breath as LeBron until Wiggins. He has been considered to be at a different level since his athleticism first attracted attention early in his high school career.

I also agree that his college stats don't measure up to Durant, Mayo and Gordon, but I think you are posing a false equivalency. The three guys you mention were all the only big-time scorer on their teams, and were expected to try to score every time they touched the ball. Wiggins, on the other hand, played on a team with several stars, and to average 20 points a game in his final month of college with all the other good players on that team is impressive. A better college comparison for Wiggins is (gasp!) Michael Jordan, another exceptional athlete who showed jaw-dropping potential but modest stats in college because he played on a very good team.

And if college stats are a compelling factor in evaluating a player's ceiling, there's no way Zach has a higher ceiling than Andrew.

LST, you keep saying Wiggins averaged 20 points a game in his final month, but that was over a span of only seven games (three of them were duds). Not to mention he had a 41 point game to up his scoring average (also had 4 and 9 point games). Keep in mind this was while Embiid was injured. So, either he scored 20 points a game in March as the main man or he played on a team "with several stars"? Which is it? It can't be both.

I also think you're forgetting how highly touted Harrison Barnes was. Wiggins is much closer to Barnes than he is Jordan or LeBron... or Durant for that matter.

Player A: 17.1 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 1.1 APG, 1.1 SPG, 44% FG, 36% 3P, 72% FT, 5.1 WS (3.1/2.0), 21.2 PER

Player B: 17.1 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 1.5 APG, 1.2 SPG, 45% FG, 34% 3P, 78% FT, 4.9 WS (3.2/1.7), 21.4 PER

Can we guess which player is which? Player A is Harrison Barnes; Player B is Andrew Wiggins. Barnes was projected to be the No. 1 overall pick in the 2011 NBA Draft, but he returned to UNC for his sophomore season, in which his game continued to get picked apart.

Will Wiggins turn out to be the same player as Barnes is in the NBA? Time will tell. I caution you to slow down on the Wiggins train, though. He is no where near the level of prospect as LeBron, Durant, Griffin, Rose, etc.

Do I hope the Wolves get a Wiggins package from the Cavs? I do, but I know the risk with him is high. As I've said previously, he could be Paul George... Or he could bottom out and be Harrison Barnes. This franchise is at a position where we need high ceiling prospects mainly because we have no other way of acquiring "star" players.

khans2k5 wrote:Do you guys see Lavine's long-term position as a 1 or 2? Watching him play makes me think he is a PG long-term which brings up the debate as to who you keep as the PG long-term. Lavine is already a better shooter and athlete than Ricky and Ricky is a better passer and 1 on 1 defender. It's an interesting argument for sure. I think you give Lavine 2-3 years as a backup combo guard and potential starter at the 2 and go from there, but I'm not sure how good he'll be off the ball which doesn't fit with Ricky who can't really play off the ball either. Time will tell.

Very good point Khans. I think that LaVine is a great complement player next to Rubio. Lavine is the player Rubio need next to him to blossom. It reminds me when Rubio played for Barcelona 2010 (great team) and won the title in Spain and the title in the Euroleague at the same season, he used to play next to Juan Carlos Navarro (remember him? Memphis 2007/8) - a great shooter who can also handle the ball as a pg and create for himself (and Rubio played off the ball). Navarro wasn`t as athletic as LaVine, and if LaVine could be a reliable shooter, he & Rubio could be even better.

I don't disagree that Wiggins' floor could be Harrison Barnes, cam. They were both the consensus best player at their levels, and are tremendous athletes who appear to play effortlessly. And their freshman stats are similar. But I think that the fact that Barnes chose to return to college for his second year shows that even he knew that he had some flaws in his game that he needed to work on. I think all of us would have been stunned if Wiggins had returned for his sophomore year.

Since I also love Player A and Player B comparisons, try this one on for size:

Player A: 17.1 PPG. 5.9 RPG, 1.5 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.2 BPG

Player B: 17.7 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 1.8 APG, 1.7 SPG, .7 BPG

Almost identical, huh? And the similarities don't stop there. Both players played on balanced teams where they didn't have to be "the man", and both were incredible athletes who provided several jaw-dropping highlights that hinted at their potential. Player A of course is Andrew Wiggins, and Player B is Michael Jordan. And if you compared only their freshman stats, Wiggins blows Jordan away. While I agree that Wiggins could end up as Harrison Barnes, there's evidence to support that his ceiling is Michael Jordan. He already shows a knack for the defensive side of the ball that Jordan had, and his step back jumper is quite advanced for his age and remindful of Jordan's step back.

Barnes to Jordan is a very wide span, and if I had to predict, I think Wiggins will end up much closer to Jordan than Barnes. I don't see him as having Jordan's intensity, so he will fall short, but still to me Jordan is who Wiggins should model his game after.

I see LaVine as having a high ceiling also, but just not nearly as high as Wiggins'. We just don't have the data yet to make that kind of projection for Zach.

khans2k5 wrote:The guy can score 18 in the flow of an offense and defend very well on the perimeter and on the weak side. He has a good looking jumper and has a couple moves to get good looks (he already has a good step back jumper). He is a more strength away from being a very good to elite defender. Do you want the guy to apologize for being a team player and not trying to take over the offense and force it? He knows how to play off the ball as a result of his team play in college which is more important for a SF than the ability to setup teammates. Given how much better he is going to be on defense than Parker, I don't get how Parker is going to be a better player. Parker has a higher floor, but lower ceiling. I think Wiggins is a classic case of a guy being over-analyzed. Cleveland wouldn't have put up this much of a fuss with the Love trade if he was such a flawed prospect.

This is the same team that took Bennett #1 last season Kahns