Shabazz Muhammad

[mrhockey89]

If Cris Carter was 6'4", I'll eat LST's hat. He was listed at 6'3", which is always a bit bigger than actual height. That's still good size, but let's not stretch the facts. It's not fair to compare Carter's end-of-career skills resume with Shabazz. He had 15 years of NFL level coaching to perfect his technique. The Cris Carter that was dumped from the Eagles was talented but viewed as someone who wouldn't reach his potential and was therefore worth little to nothing. Over time, he proved people wrong and became an all-time great.

No one can deny that Shabazz can rebound at an exceptional rate for his position and put the ball in the hoop. You can question his defense, ball handling, and passing, but those can be fixed over time. Shabazz does, however, have the most important quality that Wolves picks have been lacking in recent years: drive. He works his ass off nonstop, and never quits. Those are the guys that improve. Shabazz is really, really good at a few things, with the potential to get a lot better at many more.

Are you really arguing over an inch? Moss was 6'4" then, if I called Moss 6'5" would it be worth arguing? CC was NOT shorter than 6'3", no way. You say don't stretch his height, well don't underestimate it either.

And let's be clear about something, CC was released because he was a drug addict at the time, not because of his talent. Make no mistake about that. If Shabazz was being held back by a drug or alcohol addiction then that'd be a comparison you could draw, but that, as far as we know, is not an issue with Shabazz.

You also said that CC was viewed to be worth little to nothing. Not true at all, Buddy Ryan had a tough time cutting CC and his wife even begged him not to because he had so much ability. It should surprise noone that CC was able to make a heck of a career once he was able to kick the addictions.

I already mentioned Shabazz being a good rebounder and that he's got a solid post game. He's never going to become a passer, and I feel comfortable saying that.

I didn't rip Shabazz, I called his game what it has been so far in the NBA. All your comments are projections of what you think "could" happen. Well you could say that about any young player. Players are more likely to gain a post-up game in the NBA than become good passers. Anyway, my point wasn't to rip Shabazz but to say that we better not be relying on him to be a part of the rotation next year. He should be a guy we "hope" can play well enough to be a rotation guy, but he's not there yet and he certainly shouldn't be put on people's lineup cards as a guy who is a lock as a solid rotation player much less a starter.

Shabazz was better than I expected as a rookie, but I had pretty much no expectations for him. He's always struck me as a guy who'd dominate a lesser league but not a good fit for the NBA. He's got a chance in the NBA, and I hope he makes the most of it.

[mrhockey89]

LST's point can still be taken with the CC analogy even if its flawed in a few ways. First of all CC was dumped because of significant off the field issues not him being one-dimensional. Fortunately because he got dumped it jolted him into changing and in addition he went to an unbelieveably good situation where Denny Green had some offensive juggernaut teams. So there is a little comparison with Bazz there too since he has some baggage also. Its not really a good comparison though but no reason to get too hung up on that. I always like being beminded of CC though he was an unbelieveable player.

What I have seen of Bazz is he has more of a game of a SF. In fact I could even see him play as an oddball PF in a smallball lineup for short stretches. All I can say about him is just like pretty much every other player when they come into the league will he get it and become useful or will he not get it and become the guy that sorta bounces around and never does anything.

I agree with monster almost to a tee, although I don't like see Shabazz at PF because I hate extreme small ball.

[Monster]

I think that one thing Shabazz may be able to do well is shoot. The other weaknesses are clear to anyone but he shot plenty well enough and he ended up with a decent enough FG% despite not shooting the ball well, but it was really in limited minutes and when he was getting more run things were looking up.

My take on Bazz is just trying to be positive but realistic. I was very supprtive of the pick despite not really loving Bazz's game. The thing is with a pick in that range you get a guy that's not undersized that was VERY productive in a legit conference as a freshman. To me he seemed like a guy that falls far enough you take a chance on him if you like him and you think he could be a fit for your team. I haven't seen enough from him to project anything super positive. He looked really rough overall in vegas for the most part last summer so I'll be intersted to see if he rounds into any type of form in those few games. Its nice to see some guys really defending and liking the guy. I really do wanna see him do well. I'm honestly pulling for him as a person a little more that either Beas or Derrick Williams who he has been somewhat compared to. I don't know why exactly I'm pulling for him more but I am.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

longstrange, the CC/Mariano comparisons are not apples to apples. First of all, Cris Carter was a great (not just good) blocker, he had the best hands of all time, he had a 40" vertical, was 6'4" tall (which is great size for a receiver), perfected his route running, had the sideline tightrope act of all time, etc. The only thing CC really lacked was speed.

If Shabazz was the greatest scorer of all time (CC had the best hands of all-time, remember), then the comparison could relate, but he's not. There's lots of great scorers that are terrible overall players in the NBA. Using T'Wolves history an example, Michael Beasley was a better scorer than Shabazz, but Beasley is a net negative.

With all that said, I'm not saying that Shabazz won't become a good player. One thing he's got in his favor is work ethic, which is huge. But he's got a long ways to go still to become a solid NBA player. I hope he gets there, but I don't think he's someone we can count on just yet.

If Cris Carter was 6'4", I'll eat LST's hat. He was listed at 6'3", which is always a bit bigger than actual height. That's still good size, but let's not stretch the facts. It's not fair to compare Carter's end-of-career skills resume with Shabazz. He had 15 years of NFL level coaching to perfect his technique. The Cris Carter that was dumped from the Eagles was talented but viewed as someone who wouldn't reach his potential and was therefore worth little to nothing. Over time, he proved people wrong and became an all-time great.

No one can deny that Shabazz can rebound at an exceptional rate for his position and put the ball in the hoop. You can question his defense, ball handling, and passing, but those can be fixed over time. Shabazz does, however, have the most important quality that Wolves picks have been lacking in recent years: drive. He works his ass off nonstop, and never quits. Those are the guys that improve. Shabazz is really, really good at a few things, with the potential to get a lot better at many more.

So wait, which Wolves draft picks have been lacking in drive the past few years? Is Love, Pek, or Rubio dogging it in the offsesaon? What exactly did Bazz improve on from college this year? He had 6 assists all year, is he really going to improve to be a good passer when he hasn't shown he can ever? He's a bad defender because he's undersized at the SF spot because he can't dribble enough to be a SG. He's not that good of athlete for an NBA player. Not quite sure what things he's really really good at besides offensive rebounding.

Yea he can put the ball in the hoop because he shoots it every time. Every really good in the NBA can score from anywhere on the court. Bazz cannot

alex, I think you know that ace is not referring to Love, Rubio and Pek when he talks about recent draft picks who lacked drive...he's talking about Wes and Derrick. And nobody can argue that Shabazz' drive to be better is nothing like Wes and Derrick.

You continue to say that Shabazz is not a good shooter, but while others disagree and back it up with data, you stick to your unsupported, and incorrect, narrative. Let's look at some shooting numbers:

College 3-pointers: Shabazz shot 37.7 % beyond the arc on high volume, coincidentally the same percentage as CJ McCollum. Is McCollum also a terrible shooter?

NBA rookie shooting %. Shabazz shot a very respectable 46% from the field in his rookie year. Let's put that in perspective with a little game. You come up with a 2013-14 non-center rookie with a better shooting percentage, and I'll find you three with a worse percentage. Okay, go...

NBA 3-pointers: Shabazz did not shoot well from beyond the arc...27.3 %. But Adelman didn't want him shooting threes, just like Love was held back his rookie year. And how did that work out for Love? Not very well, as he shot 10.5 % beyond the arc. And Love was a pretty good 3-point shooter in college at 34.4 %...not as good as Shabazz, but pretty good. But Love is a relentless worker like Shabazz, and has vastly improved his 3-point shooting. I'm not saying that Shabazz will for sure be a better 3-point shooter than Love, although he shot better in their respective first years in college and the pros, but I don't think it's inconceivable that he can become a 40% 3-point shooter...and still be productive on putbacks, little jump hooks and fast breaks.

Shabazz has flaws in his game, and while I expect him to improve, I think his best role will be as a sixth man. He's the kind of guy Flip can turn to and say "Shabazz, go out there for 8 minutes and get me 10 points". We saw him do it last year in the limited minutes Rick gave him (he was the rookie leader in points per minute), and he has scored in bunches at every level he has played. I see Shabazz as a potential 6th Man of the Year down the line, and teams with great 6th men are usually successful.

[mrhockey89]

LS: To your point about Shabazz vs McCollum college shooting, I think a better representation would be TS%, which CJ was much better, and improved quite a bit during college. We're hoping Shabazz's numbers improve like McCollum's did, but that's all just anybody's guess at this time. And McCollum was shooting about 52% beyond the arc his final year in college.

Alex is definitely a pessimist on this board I can see, but I do think you're overvaluing what Shabazz is at this point.

[Monster]

LS: To your point about Shabazz vs McCollum college shooting, I think a better representation would be TS%, which CJ was much better, and improved quite a bit during college. We're hoping Shabazz's numbers improve like McCollum's did, but that's all just anybody's guess at this time. And McCollum was shooting about 52% beyond the arc his final year in college.

Alex is definitely a pessimist on this board I can see, but I do think you're overvaluing what Shabazz is at this point.

The point being made is simple. People seem to say Bazz can't shoot and CJ was widely believed to be VERY good at shooting when he came into the draft. The point is/was that bazz shot reasonably well for a freshman in a legit conference. CJ was successful in his 4 years in a lesser conference. Also remember his senior year numbers are a small sample since he only played 12 games. The point of comparing CJ and Bazz is hyperbole just like the idea that Bazz clearly sucks at shooting.

The reality is Bazz may be a good shooter we don't know yet. He was drafted like other one and done guys based on potential. There really isn't enough to say either way but there is enough evidence to say he isn't terrible at it imo.

[mrhockey89]

To clarify my thoughts on Shabazz. I want him to either be an extremely efficient scorer and a plus defender while showing a solid basketball IQ (i.e. not Martell Webster) and good off the ball. That's what I want to see.

[Monster]

To clarify my thoughts on Shabazz. I want him to either be an extremely efficient scorer and a plus defender while showing a solid basketball IQ (i.e. not Martell Webster) and good off the ball. That's what I want to see.

I think we would be relatively happy if Bazz ended up as good as Martell has been the last 2 years with the Wizards. He is a great example of why we shouldn't just be dumping Bud.

[bleedspeed]

Martell is a not a good example of what Shabazz could be. I really struggle to think of a comparison.

[worldK]

Martell is a not a good example of what Shabazz could be. I really struggle to think of a comparison.

Bonzi wells is the best case for shabazz for me. Both big sf/pf who is very good at the post and rebound well. Wells was able to round out his game and became a team player, ball handler and average defender. Hope bazz can as well.