AbeVigodaLive wrote:A few have noted the Wolves' team chemistry.
I wish that translated to how they played together on the court. It's still a selfish team. Part of that is because it's still a young team with guys trying to prove themselves in this league. It's bound to happen. That's the NBA.
Yes Abe and the lack of focus on offense doesn't help. In addition to some guys being too selfish looking for their shots sometimes the problem is compounded by guys being to unselfish making an extra pass when they should shoot the damn ball and that forces some guy to go one on one because they have to just get up a shot.
I really don't want to see Muhammad turn yet another 2-on-1 break into only 1 point...
It's happened multiple times already. Pass the ball for the easy dunk...
AbeVigodaLive wrote:A few have noted the Wolves' team chemistry.
I wish that translated to how they played together on the court. It's still a selfish team. Part of that is because it's still a young team with guys trying to prove themselves in this league. It's bound to happen. That's the NBA.
Yes Abe and the lack of focus on offense doesn't help. In addition to some guys being too selfish looking for their shots sometimes the problem is compounded by guys being to unselfish making an extra pass when they should shoot the damn ball and that forces some guy to go one on one because they have to just get up a shot.
I really don't want to see Muhammad turn yet another 2-on-1 break into only 1 point...
It's happened multiple times already. Pass the ball for the easy dunk...
Yep I was thinking of that one also and yeah it's not the first time. Bazz has been on the other end of that kind of play with Lavine too.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:A few have noted the Wolves' team chemistry.
I wish that translated to how they played together on the court. It's still a selfish team. Part of that is because it's still a young team with guys trying to prove themselves in this league. It's bound to happen. That's the NBA.
Yes Abe and the lack of focus on offense doesn't help. In addition to some guys being too selfish looking for their shots sometimes the problem is compounded by guys being to unselfish making an extra pass when they should shoot the damn ball and that forces some guy to go one on one because they have to just get up a shot.
I really don't want to see Muhammad turn yet another 2-on-1 break into only 1 point...
It's happened multiple times already. Pass the ball for the easy dunk...
Yep I was thinking of that one also and yeah it's not the first time. Bazz has been on the other end of that kind of play with Lavine too.
There's about a 75% chance that it won't matter. Although last night, we saw how one extra point could have made a difference.
This isn't a selfish team at all. In fact, most of our players repeatedly pass up good shots to make bad passes. To the extent you see one-on-one plays from our guys, it's primarily because of an unimaginative, stagnant offense that fails to get guys open off the ball. The offensive flow was better last night, but generally it's a lot of guys going to their spots and standing there while the ball-handler dribbles around trying to find an angle that will facilitate a pass. Not surprisingly, that approach doesn't lend itself to a very effective passing game.
We have a number of players on this team who love to pass and who are very good at it -- Ricky, Dieng, Towns, Bjelica, KG and Miller. Prince is also a pretty good and very willing passer.
LaVine takes shots because he's a shooter and he does a really good job of finding or creating open spaces for his shots. But you look at his assist numbers and they are decent, especially for a guy whose main skill is shooting. You put a natural shooter like LaVine at PG and, not surprisingly, he'll often take shots without anyone else handling the ball. But he's a decent and very willing passer and he's been our best shooter thus far this season. If you're at the games as I am, you can see that the offense simply fails to get guys open consistently for LaVine. It takes a virtuoso passer like Ricky to find open guys in our offense, but as we saw the last two games, even Ricky struggles passing in this offense.
There are only two guys on this team who don't appear particularly interested in passing the ball -- Wiggins and Shabazz. As for Wiggins, its not selfishness; he's just a bad passer. He doesn't have the instincts or skill set to pass effectively. I also think our coaching staff expects him to shoot and score so he's largely doing what our coaching staff expects him to do. As for Shabazz, he came our of college as a scorer who rarely passed and he's remained the same player in that respect. I also think the coaching staff expects him to focus on scoring when he's on the court. Thankfully, Shabazz is also an excellent rebounder and last night he showed his rebounding prowess on the defensive as well as offensive boards. Shabazz has also been working his ass off on the defensive end consistently this season. In addition, he's often one of the first guys to run over and pick a teammate off the floor or dive for a loose ball. Yes, he should have passed the ball to LaVine on that fast break last night, but LaVine didn't exactly give him a good target.
Honestly, this notion that the Wolves play selfishly on the court is beyond ridiculous. Better coaching and more experience playing together with more consistent rotations will facilitate better ball movement. In the meantime, I hope we see less passing by guys passing up good shots.
lipoli390 wrote:This isn't a selfish team at all. In fact, most of our players repeatedly pass up good shots to make bad passes. To the extent you see one-on-one plays from our guys, it's primarily because of an unimaginative, stagnant offense that fails to get guys open off the ball. The offensive flow was better last night, but generally it's a lot of guys going to their spots and standing there while the ball-handler dribbles around trying to find an angle that will facilitate a pass. Not surprisingly, that approach doesn't lend itself to a very effective passing game.
We have a number of players on this team who love to pass and who are very good at it -- Ricky, Dieng, Towns, Bjelica, KG and Miller. Prince is also a pretty good and very willing passer.
LaVine takes shots because he's a shooter and he does a really good job of finding or creating open spaces for his shots. But you look at his assist numbers and they are decent, especially for a guy whose main skill is shooting. You put a natural shooter like LaVine at PG and, not surprisingly, he'll often take shots without anyone else handling the ball. But he's a decent and very willing passer and he's been our best shooter thus far this season. If you're at the games as I am, you can see that the offense simply fails to get guys open consistently for LaVine. It takes a virtuoso passer like Ricky to find open guys in our offense, but as we saw the last two games, even Ricky struggles passing in this offense.
There are only two guys on this team who don't appear particularly interested in passing the ball -- Wiggins and Shabazz. As for Wiggins, its not selfishness; he's just a bad passer. He doesn't have the instincts or skill set to pass effectively. I also think our coaching staff expects him to shoot and score so he's largely doing what our coaching staff expects him to do. As for Shabazz, he came our of college as a scorer who rarely passed and he's remained the same player in that respect. I also think the coaching staff expects him to focus on scoring when he's on the court. Thankfully, Shabazz is also an excellent rebounder and last night he showed his rebounding prowess on the defensive as well as offensive boards. Shabazz has also been working his ass off on the defensive end consistently this season. In addition, he's often one of the first guys to run over and pick a teammate off the floor or dive for a loose ball. Yes, he should have passed the ball to LaVine on that fast break last night, but LaVine didn't exactly give him a good target.
Honestly, this notion that the Wolves play selfishly on the court is beyond ridiculous. Better coaching and more experience playing together with more consistent rotations will facilitate better ball movement. In the meantime, I hope we see less passing by guys passing up good shots.
"Beyond ridiculous"... meh. You can say "I don't see it that way" or "I disagree"... but to act like it's not even a possibility?
Let's just disagree on this one... You blame coaching and that might be part of it. But I see selfish plays on the court. And it's not just about passing by the way. I see multiple guys seemingly out to get "theirs." Maybe it's because they're young and want to stand out on a mediocre team? It wouldn't be beyond ridiculous for young guys with millions in front of them to consider their own best interest in that scenario. And it certainly wouldn't be unprecedented.
[Note: On a tangent... that's sorta related, but not really... I thought Mike Miller was a very selfish player when he was in Minnesota BECAUSE he passed up so many open shots. He was hurting the team by passing up a shot only to put another player in a worse position to take one later in the shot clock. Was he protecting his percentages? Playing how he wanted to play instead of how the team wanted him to play? ]
lipoli390 wrote:This isn't a selfish team at all. In fact, most of our players repeatedly pass up good shots to make bad passes. To the extent you see one-on-one plays from our guys, it's primarily because of an unimaginative, stagnant offense that fails to get guys open off the ball. The offensive flow was better last night, but generally it's a lot of guys going to their spots and standing there while the ball-handler dribbles around trying to find an angle that will facilitate a pass. Not surprisingly, that approach doesn't lend itself to a very effective passing game.
We have a number of players on this team who love to pass and who are very good at it -- Ricky, Dieng, Towns, Bjelica, KG and Miller. Prince is also a pretty good and very willing passer.
LaVine takes shots because he's a shooter and he does a really good job of finding or creating open spaces for his shots. But you look at his assist numbers and they are decent, especially for a guy whose main skill is shooting. You put a natural shooter like LaVine at PG and, not surprisingly, he'll often take shots without anyone else handling the ball. But he's a decent and very willing passer and he's been our best shooter thus far this season. If you're at the games as I am, you can see that the offense simply fails to get guys open consistently for LaVine. It takes a virtuoso passer like Ricky to find open guys in our offense, but as we saw the last two games, even Ricky struggles passing in this offense.
There are only two guys on this team who don't appear particularly interested in passing the ball -- Wiggins and Shabazz. As for Wiggins, its not selfishness; he's just a bad passer. He doesn't have the instincts or skill set to pass effectively. I also think our coaching staff expects him to shoot and score so he's largely doing what our coaching staff expects him to do. As for Shabazz, he came our of college as a scorer who rarely passed and he's remained the same player in that respect. I also think the coaching staff expects him to focus on scoring when he's on the court. Thankfully, Shabazz is also an excellent rebounder and last night he showed his rebounding prowess on the defensive as well as offensive boards. Shabazz has also been working his ass off on the defensive end consistently this season. In addition, he's often one of the first guys to run over and pick a teammate off the floor or dive for a loose ball. Yes, he should have passed the ball to LaVine on that fast break last night, but LaVine didn't exactly give him a good target.
Honestly, this notion that the Wolves play selfishly on the court is beyond ridiculous. Better coaching and more experience playing together with more consistent rotations will facilitate better ball movement. In the meantime, I hope we see less passing by guys passing up good shots.
"Beyond ridiculous"... meh. You can say "I don't see it that way" or "I disagree"... but to act like it's not even a possibility?
Let's just disagree on this one... You blame coaching and that might be part of it. But I see selfish plays on the court. And it's not just about passing by the way. I see multiple guys seemingly out to get "theirs." Maybe it's because they're young and want to stand out on a mediocre team? It wouldn't be beyond ridiculous for young guys with millions in front of them to consider their own best interest in that scenario. And it certainly wouldn't be unprecedented.
[Note: On a tangent... that's sorta related, but not really... I thought Mike Miller was a very selfish player when he was in Minnesota BECAUSE he passed up so many open shots. He was hurting the team by passing up a shot only to put another player in a worse position to take one later in the shot clock. Was he protecting his percentages? Playing how he wanted to play instead of how the team wanted him to play? ]
Well Abe, I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. I see the point you're making with the Mike Miller example. I think it's really insightful. But again, I see players like Town, Dieng, Bjelica, Ricky and Andre Miller who clearly love to pass and they often forego really good shot opportunities to pass the ball. I just can't square that reality with the notion that this is a selfish team. And contrary to your Mike Miller theory, it's clear that guys like Towns, Dieng, Belly, and Ricky are not passing up bad shots that might hurt their percentages. I see LaVine taking shots in lieu of passing at times because he's choosing wisely to do what he does well. His bad passes probably exceed his number of bad shots.
My point was that the offense does not lend itself to good ball movement. The team we see on the court is a reflection of the practice court and there is definitely something wrong with how this team is being taught and prepared offensively. Looking at the total picture, what might appear to be selfishness is a poorly designed or poorly executed offense -- more likely the former.
Whether you want to call it selfish or bad offense or youth or whatever (it's likely a combo platter depending on your perspective you decide how big the helpings are of each of the problems) the offense generally has been bad everybody will agree with that. There is lots of blame to go around. Because I am a positive sort so tend to see no guys as total selfish head cases just jacking up shots because they don't give a crap. Bazz has an attack mentality it's partly what makes him so good and fun to watch but it gets him into trouble sometimes. I don't see a guy I despise as much as say Nick Young who is talented but is absolutely maddening. Sam gets some blame for the offense being bad too but I tend to give him a bit of a pass because he has put so much time and effort into defense and Sam has talked a lot about getting guys to do basic habits on offense like being shot ready in the triple threat position. It SOUNDS like this staff and the vets do a lot of teaching which could keep them from working on having a pretty offensive game. Regardless offensively this isn't the type of basketball anyone wants to see and it's not the Spurs GS type stuff everyone wants to play.
I'll probably get dismissed for saying this but I wonder if the GS team we are watching right now still has little of what they got from Mark Jackson and his staff for years. I say that because I think sometimes teams benefit from both the coach they had and the coach that takes them to the next level. I guess my point is Sam may not be the guy long term but he and this staff might be doing some really good work with these young guys that will pay off down the road. Let's hope so right?
monsterpile wrote:Whether you want to call it selfish or bad offense or youth or whatever (it's likely a combo platter depending on your perspective you decide how big the helpings are of each of the problems) the offense generally has been bad everybody will agree with that. There is lots of blame to go around. Because I am a positive sort so tend to see no guys as total selfish head cases just jacking up shots because they don't give a crap. Bazz has an attack mentality it's partly what makes him so good and fun to watch but it gets him into trouble sometimes. I don't see a guy I despise as much as say Nick Young who is talented but is absolutely maddening. Sam gets some blame for the offense being bad too but I tend to give him a bit of a pass because he has put so much time and effort into defense and Sam has talked a lot about getting guys to do basic habits on offense like being shot ready in the triple threat position. It SOUNDS like this staff and the vets do a lot of teaching which could keep them from working on having a pretty offensive game. Regardless offensively this isn't the type of basketball anyone wants to see and it's not the Spurs GS type stuff everyone wants to play.
I'll probably get dismissed for saying this but I wonder if the GS team we are watching right now still has little of what they got from Mark Jackson and his staff for years. I say that because I think sometimes teams benefit from both the coach they had and the coach that takes them to the next level. I guess my point is Sam may not be the guy long term but he and this staff might be doing some really good work with these young guys that will pay off down the road. Let's hope so right?
Hopefully. I think the Jackson comp is a good positive one. I don't think Jackson was a bad coach (for his players... for assistant coaches, he was a trainwreck). He provided the foundation for a young team, getting them to buy-in and play together and focus on defense, work hard, et al.
Golden State seems like a relatively close-knit group. Obviously, winning helps that happen... but so does a commitment to each other instilled into the team culture.
That's the reason why I wouldn't be mortified if Mitchell is retained. But I do NOT seeing him being a guy capable of reaching any sustainable success in today's NBA. So why stall the ultimate goal?
I agree, Abe. Let's get a coach for both the short and long term. Whatever the players get from Sam this season - toughness, defensive intensity - will be nice foundations, but it's time to get the pieces in place by the start of next season. Continuity is important and the time isn't far off when our core players will be at the end of their rookie contracts. We have to be firing on nearly all cylinders by then or this whole thing could fall apart.
