Minnesota Sports Forum

I think he is hard to watch regardless of his numbers. Clearly Ryan isn't a good fit coaching wise because seems to be coddling him. Give me a coach who will throw his ass on the bench after three minutes of coasting through the game. Saunders is trying to push guys toward the 3pter in practice, but your max player with one of the worst shooting pct's says he will take what ever shot he feels comfortable with. Just like Gorgui, Wig would be spending some significant time on the bench if I was coaching.

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Part of it could also be teams have learned what to take away from him offensively. And then he hasn't been able to adjust. I don't know, just trying to understand this whole mess. He's kind of stuck here for another 4 years.

Bad hands. No strength. He's just gonna fall into what the defense gives him because he doesn't have the tools to fight to the spots he should be getting to. A guy with his frame is just gonna get worn down jumping into 7 footers night after night taking a beating and he doesn't have the handle to help him navigate around them in the paint. Honestly he just needs to play off ball and shoot 3's and cut to the basket, but he doesn't have the mindset to not float in that scenario. It's a no win situation. His only chance is to put on 30 lbs so he can body guys to easier shooting spots.

Yeah, i think you're spot on here. Unfortunately some guys just can't put on weight. My son in law made the big leagues with the Giants and his biggest flaw was his ability to maintain weight. He would start the season at 190 lbs and end up at 165. His fastball would start the season at 97mph and by the end of the year would be 91. No matter what he did to keep his weight up it wouldn't work. He probably ate as much as anyone on the roster but his genetics just failed him.

Do we know for certain Wiggins has tried to put on weight/muscle?

I don't. But Jim Peterson recently made some pointed comments about it on a telecast.

Personally other than his bad hands I don't think there is anything physically holding him back. I remember his rookie year he getting worked by Tashaun Prince in the post. Starting last year he was about to play a lot of the bigger SF in the post as a defender. Regardless of his body composition IMO he is clearly stronger. Covington is DPOY candidate and all NBA defensive guy. His lower legs make Wiggins look kinda big. Wiggins has plenty of physical gifts to get it done. It's other things that are holding him back IMHO.

Covington is a DPOY candidate because of his help defense. He's not a 1v1 stopper. He's one of if not the best wing helper in the league. So Wiggins could learn to do that, but it requires a focus and effort he doesn't consistently show on the court. Honestly we should be putting Wiggins under Covington's wing to try to be the same guy. You could do a lot worse than having two ROCO's on the wings even if it's not ideal offensively because it lacks handling and playmaking offense.

monsterpile wrote:
Personally other than his bad hands I don't think there is anything physically holding him back. I remember his rookie year he getting worked by Tashaun Prince in the post. Starting last year he was about to play a lot of the bigger SF in the post as a defender. Regardless of his body composition IMO he is clearly stronger. Covington is DPOY candidate and all NBA defensive guy. His lower legs make Wiggins look kinda big. Wiggins has plenty of physical gifts to get it done. It's other things that are holding him back IMHO.

I just don't think he is that coordinated, but the mental aspect is where he really struggles. He is clearly not in touch with reality -

Wiggins said after he has off nights from the floor like tonight, he will go back and watch film of his shots, looking to see what he could've done better on those shots. But overall: "I don't let it bother me. I think next game I can make it better. I don't worry about it."

I believe everything he said except for the part about making it better!

Has the guy looked at his stats?????

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Part of it could also be teams have learned what to take away from him offensively. And then he hasn't been able to adjust. I don't know, just trying to understand this whole mess. He's kind of stuck here for another 4 years.

Bad hands. No strength. He's just gonna fall into what the defense gives him because he doesn't have the tools to fight to the spots he should be getting to. A guy with his frame is just gonna get worn down jumping into 7 footers night after night taking a beating and he doesn't have the handle to help him navigate around them in the paint. Honestly he just needs to play off ball and shoot 3's and cut to the basket, but he doesn't have the mindset to not float in that scenario. It's a no win situation. His only chance is to put on 30 lbs so he can body guys to easier shooting spots.

Yeah, i think you're spot on here. Unfortunately some guys just can't put on weight. My son in law made the big leagues with the Giants and his biggest flaw was his ability to maintain weight. He would start the season at 190 lbs and end up at 165. His fastball would start the season at 97mph and by the end of the year would be 91. No matter what he did to keep his weight up it wouldn't work. He probably ate as much as anyone on the roster but his genetics just failed him.

Do we know for certain Wiggins has tried to put on weight/muscle?

I don't. But Jim Peterson recently made some pointed comments about it on a telecast.

Personally other than his bad hands I don't think there is anything physically holding him back. I remember his rookie year he getting worked by Tashaun Prince in the post. Starting last year he was about to play a lot of the bigger SF in the post as a defender. Regardless of his body composition IMO he is clearly stronger. Covington is DPOY candidate and all NBA defensive guy. His lower legs make Wiggins look kinda big. Wiggins has plenty of physical gifts to get it done. It's other things that are holding him back IMHO.

Covington is a DPOY candidate because of his help defense. He's not a 1v1 stopper. He's one of if not the best wing helper in the league. So Wiggins could learn to do that, but it requires a focus and effort he doesn't consistently show on the court. Honestly we should be putting Wiggins under Covington's wing to try to be the same guy. You could do a lot worse than having two ROCO's on the wings even if it's not ideal offensively because it lacks handling and playmaking offense.

I totally agree that's what makes Covington so good. I also think Wiggins who is more of a play your man solid is a better fit with Covington. I do think Wiggins this season has both gotten better and put more effort into being a help defender. Its not enough yet but...again its more ability to mental aspect not anything physical...except there are times he makes defensive plays which he is directly or indirectly creating loose balls and he doesn't come up with them because of his bad hands.

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Part of it could also be teams have learned what to take away from him offensively. And then he hasn't been able to adjust. I don't know, just trying to understand this whole mess. He's kind of stuck here for another 4 years.

Bad hands. No strength. He's just gonna fall into what the defense gives him because he doesn't have the tools to fight to the spots he should be getting to. A guy with his frame is just gonna get worn down jumping into 7 footers night after night taking a beating and he doesn't have the handle to help him navigate around them in the paint. Honestly he just needs to play off ball and shoot 3's and cut to the basket, but he doesn't have the mindset to not float in that scenario. It's a no win situation. His only chance is to put on 30 lbs so he can body guys to easier shooting spots.

Yeah, i think you're spot on here. Unfortunately some guys just can't put on weight. My son in law made the big leagues with the Giants and his biggest flaw was his ability to maintain weight. He would start the season at 190 lbs and end up at 165. His fastball would start the season at 97mph and by the end of the year would be 91. No matter what he did to keep his weight up it wouldn't work. He probably ate as much as anyone on the roster but his genetics just failed him.

Do we know for certain Wiggins has tried to put on weight/muscle?

I don't. But Jim Peterson recently made some pointed comments about it on a telecast.

Personally other than his bad hands I don't think there is anything physically holding him back. I remember his rookie year he getting worked by Tashaun Prince in the post. Starting last year he was about to play a lot of the bigger SF in the post as a defender. Regardless of his body composition IMO he is clearly stronger. Covington is DPOY candidate and all NBA defensive guy. His lower legs make Wiggins look kinda big. Wiggins has plenty of physical gifts to get it done. It's other things that are holding him back IMHO.

Covington is a DPOY candidate because of his help defense. He's not a 1v1 stopper. He's one of if not the best wing helper in the league. So Wiggins could learn to do that, but it requires a focus and effort he doesn't consistently show on the court. Honestly we should be putting Wiggins under Covington's wing to try to be the same guy. You could do a lot worse than having two ROCO's on the wings even if it's not ideal offensively because it lacks handling and playmaking offense.

I totally agree that's what makes Covington so good. I also think Wiggins who is more of a play your man solid is a better fit with Covington. I do think Wiggins this season has both gotten better and put more effort into being a help defender. Its not enough yet but...again its more ability to mental aspect not anything physical...except there are times he makes defensive plays which he is directly or indirectly creating loose balls and he doesn't come up with them because of his bad hands.

Andrew's advanced defensive rating remains bad at around 111 this season. He forces some turnovers, but not many, and as you indicated he doesn't come up with loose balls because of his bad hands. Bad ballhandler, bad hands, bad/highly inefficient FG shooter, poor free throw shooter who doesn't get to the line very often, bad passer, subpar rebounder, poor defender and soft. Also highly inconsistent and regressing rather than improving. That's Wiggins in a nutshell. And all this after nearly 5 full NBA seasons as a starter playing lots of minutes. He is what he is and it isn't good. Even if he had RoCo's team-friendly contract, you'd still be looking to unload him from you team.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Part of it could also be teams have learned what to take away from him offensively. And then he hasn't been able to adjust. I don't know, just trying to understand this whole mess. He's kind of stuck here for another 4 years.

Bad hands. No strength. He's just gonna fall into what the defense gives him because he doesn't have the tools to fight to the spots he should be getting to. A guy with his frame is just gonna get worn down jumping into 7 footers night after night taking a beating and he doesn't have the handle to help him navigate around them in the paint. Honestly he just needs to play off ball and shoot 3's and cut to the basket, but he doesn't have the mindset to not float in that scenario. It's a no win situation. His only chance is to put on 30 lbs so he can body guys to easier shooting spots.

Yeah, i think you're spot on here. Unfortunately some guys just can't put on weight. My son in law made the big leagues with the Giants and his biggest flaw was his ability to maintain weight. He would start the season at 190 lbs and end up at 165. His fastball would start the season at 97mph and by the end of the year would be 91. No matter what he did to keep his weight up it wouldn't work. He probably ate as much as anyone on the roster but his genetics just failed him.

Do we know for certain Wiggins has tried to put on weight/muscle?

I don't. But Jim Peterson recently made some pointed comments about it on a telecast.

Personally other than his bad hands I don't think there is anything physically holding him back. I remember his rookie year he getting worked by Tashaun Prince in the post. Starting last year he was about to play a lot of the bigger SF in the post as a defender. Regardless of his body composition IMO he is clearly stronger. Covington is DPOY candidate and all NBA defensive guy. His lower legs make Wiggins look kinda big. Wiggins has plenty of physical gifts to get it done. It's other things that are holding him back IMHO.

Covington is a DPOY candidate because of his help defense. He's not a 1v1 stopper. He's one of if not the best wing helper in the league. So Wiggins could learn to do that, but it requires a focus and effort he doesn't consistently show on the court. Honestly we should be putting Wiggins under Covington's wing to try to be the same guy. You could do a lot worse than having two ROCO's on the wings even if it's not ideal offensively because it lacks handling and playmaking offense.

I totally agree that's what makes Covington so good. I also think Wiggins who is more of a play your man solid is a better fit with Covington. I do think Wiggins this season has both gotten better and put more effort into being a help defender. Its not enough yet but...again its more ability to mental aspect not anything physical...except there are times he makes defensive plays which he is directly or indirectly creating loose balls and he doesn't come up with them because of his bad hands.

Andrew's advanced defensive rating remains bad at around 111 this season. He forces some turnovers, but not many, and as you indicated he doesn't come up with loose balls because of his bad hands. Bad ballhandler, bad hands, bad/highly inefficient FG shooter, poor free throw shooter who doesn't get to the line very often, bad passer, subpar rebounder, poor defender and soft. Also highly inconsistent and regressing rather than improving. That's Wiggins in a nutshell. And all this after nearly 5 full NBA seasons as a starter playing lots of minutes. He is what he is and it isn't good. Even if he had RoCo's team-friendly contract, you'd still be looking to unload him from you team.

I get why someone would say that Wiggins making Covington money wouldn't be an asset but that's simply not true. Wiggins at that salary would either be a nice player to have on your squad or someone you could move to some other team that would love to get a guy like that getting paid like that for the next 3 or whatever years.

I've stayed consistent in saying what i wanted to see from Wiggins this season was playing with legit effort and playing better D. It's pretty clear he hasn't regressed in though areas at the very least. I think he is doing more things outside of scoring to help you win games. Is it enough all things considered? Obviously not. The offensive struggles are really bad. If Wiggins was scoring with his usual relative inefficiency I think there would be a few more folks (probably including yourself) that would be much more hesitant to give up on him. Wiggins is basically looking more like Harrison Barnes type of player and that would be fine you could live with some of the inconsistency...if he was making Covington money but he is making a hell of a lot more than that. It's just hard to really wrap your mind around him only making that kind of money.

Interestingly a college friend that's a longtime Kings fan messaged me earlier this week about the Lakers bad season and we talked a bit about his Kings and he said he would like to see Wiggins with his current group but his fellow Kings fans and other friends make fun of him. Lol I told him I was still somewhat of a Wiggins supporter and if he wanted my take on Wiggins I would seen him basically book. Lol I said regardless the Wolves whoever is making the decisions have to figure out what to do with Wiggins.

Sorry, monster, but if this year's Wiggins was making Covington money, it'd still be a bad deal. Look at the group of wings in that salary range.

- Will Barton ($11.8M): 0.1 VORP, 1.2 WS, 12.8 PER

- T.J. Warren ($11.8M): 0.2 VORP, 2.2 WS, 16.4 PER

- Marcus Smart ($11.6M): 1.8 VORP, 4.6 WS, 13.0 PER

- Maurice Harkless ($10.8M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 12.4 PER

- Tony Snell ($10.6M): 0.3 VORP, 2.9 WS, 11.0 PER

- Terrance Ross ($10.5M): 0.4 VORP, 2.9 WS, 14.9 PER

- Bojan Bogdanovic ($10.5M): 1.1 VORP, 5.7 WS, 16.0 PER

- Robert Covington ($10.5M): 1.4 VORP, 2.6 WS, 13.4 PER

- Rudy Gay ($10.1M): 1.3 VORP, 3.9 WS, 18.2 PER

- Andre Roberson ($10.0M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 10.9 PER

- Danny Green ($10.0M): 2.0 VORP, 4.3 WS, 12.0 PER

- Josh Richardson ($9.4M): 1.4 VORP, 5.2 WS, 14.6 PER

- Bogdan Bogdanovic ($9.0M): 0.5 VORP, 2.0 WS, 14.2 PER

These are the stats that I chose to simply depict the type of value these players bring on the court. They aren't perfect metrics and I'm well aware of that, however, they are all useful stats nonetheless. Most of these wings are in the same vicinity of each other in one way or another. Below is Andrew Wiggins...

Andrew Wiggins ($25.5M): -0.6 VORP, 0.5 WS, 11.9 PER

Even if his annual salary was $9-12M, he would still be greatly overpaid and disappointing when compared to his peers of similar wages. I hate to call you a homer -- because we all are in one way other another -- but I don't think you understand or are willing to admit just how much Wiggins sucks. It's the harsh reality and I know it's difficult to accept.

Camden0916 wrote:Sorry, monster, but if this year's Wiggins was making Covington money, it'd still be a bad deal. Look at the group of wings in that salary range.

- Will Barton ($11.8M): 0.1 VORP, 1.2 WS, 12.8 PER

- T.J. Warren ($11.8M): 0.2 VORP, 2.2 WS, 16.4 PER

- Marcus Smart ($11.6M): 1.8 VORP, 4.6 WS, 13.0 PER

- Maurice Harkless ($10.8M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 12.4 PER

- Tony Snell ($10.6M): 0.3 VORP, 2.9 WS, 11.0 PER

- Terrance Ross ($10.5M): 0.4 VORP, 2.9 WS, 14.9 PER

- Bojan Bogdanovic ($10.5M): 1.1 VORP, 5.7 WS, 16.0 PER

- Robert Covington ($10.5M): 1.4 VORP, 2.6 WS, 13.4 PER

- Rudy Gay ($10.1M): 1.3 VORP, 3.9 WS, 18.2 PER

- Andre Roberson ($10.0M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 10.9 PER

- Danny Green ($10.0M): 2.0 VORP, 4.3 WS, 12.0 PER

- Josh Richardson ($9.4M): 1.4 VORP, 5.2 WS, 14.6 PER

- Bogdan Bogdanovic ($9.0M): 0.5 VORP, 2.0 WS, 14.2 PER

These are the stats that I chose to simply depict the type of value these players bring on the court. They aren't perfect metrics and I'm well aware of that, however, they are all useful stats nonetheless. Most of these wings are in the same vicinity of each other in one way or another. Below is Andrew Wiggins...

Andrew Wiggins ($25.5M): -0.6 VORP, 0.5 WS, 11.9 PER

Even if his annual salary was $9-12M, he would still be greatly overpaid and disappointing when compared to his peers of similar wages. I hate to call you a homer -- because we all are in one way other another -- but I don't think you understand or are willing to admit just how much Wiggins sucks. It's the harsh reality and I know it's difficult to accept.

Cam part of my angle is that at that money there would be teams that would either be willing to take a guy that sucks like Wiggins and/or hope he can become more. We have all seen teams hope for more out of guys like that. There are a few guys on that list that basically a couple years ago we thought of as 1 way bench players and now they have become 2 way solid starters. At that salary you can hope Wiggins becomes solid. You aren't wishing for star guy you are asking something completely different and something much more realistic. In fact an argument could be made at that price the Wolves shouldn't deal him until they got something worthwhile back. I'm not sure I would champion that argument.

Quite frankly at this point I'm actually moving towards looking to move Wiggins this summer if we don't have to pay to get rid of him beyond a bad contract coming back for a year or so. It would be interesting to see if a team like the Cavs would deal J.R. Smith and another guy signed for just next year for Wiggins. It would be kinda funny if it happened...and also sad as you pointed out at the end of your post.

Cam is right on this one.

Wiggins is even worse than most people realize. And it's not just this season worth of statistics. We have FIVE years of proof.

And the worst part? He's getting WORSE!

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Cam is right on this one.

Wiggins is even worse than most people realize. And it's not just this season worth of statistics. We have FIVE years of proof.

And the worst part? He's getting WORSE!

Yes. The evidence is overwhelming.