Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:Yes, it's the motor, not his work ethic. Reviews coming out of college, his NBA stats to date and my own eye-test suggest that Wiggins is lacking a degree of mental focus or intensity that any great player has to have. But Thibs has seen a lot more of Wiggins than any of us -- up close -- and he has gone out of his way to praise Andrew's competitiveness. That's why I haven't given up yet on the possibility that Wiggins can eventually come close to achieving his elite potential.

The phase Thibs has used a lot to describe Butler is "multiple-effort." He has referred a lot to Butler as a multiple effort guy. He used the same phrase to describe Taj. I know exactly what Thibs means. It's that competitiveness and intensity that drives a player to go up in a crowd for a rebound, follow up his missed shot by crashing the boards to put up another shot, and chase down loose balls even if it means hitting the floor and losing some skin. Those are the things you see Butler do repeatedly. Note that Gorgui and Bazz do those things a lot too. I've seen flashes of those things from Wiggins in the few preseason games this year. Those are the things I'll be looking for from him far more this season. I know that some are convinced we'll never see those things much if at all from Wiggins. I still believe we might.

I think Wiggins competitiveness should be separate from his motor/Q score. I think it's pretty clear Wiggins has a high level of competitiveness. Sure maybe it doesn't go to every phase of the game but we have all seen him step up his game against certain opponents. Sam Mitchell told Wolfson to go look up Wiggins matched up against Butler. I don't remember what game he was referring to but this one looks pretty good. Lol

https://youtu.be/ZjEdHaytFaQ

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Yes, it's the motor, not his work ethic. Reviews coming out of college, his NBA stats to date and my own eye-test suggest that Wiggins is lacking a degree of mental focus or intensity that any great player has to have. But Thibs has seen a lot more of Wiggins than any of us -- up close -- and he has gone out of his way to praise Andrew's competitiveness. That's why I haven't given up yet on the possibility that Wiggins can eventually come close to achieving his elite potential.

The phase Thibs has used a lot to describe Butler is "multiple-effort." He has referred a lot to Butler as a multiple effort guy. He used the same phrase to describe Taj. I know exactly what Thibs means. It's that competitiveness and intensity that drives a player to go up in a crowd for a rebound, follow up his missed shot by crashing the boards to put up another shot, and chase down loose balls even if it means hitting the floor and losing some skin. Those are the things you see Butler do repeatedly. Note that Gorgui and Bazz do those things a lot too. I've seen flashes of those things from Wiggins in the few preseason games this year. Those are the things I'll be looking for from him far more this season. I know that some are convinced we'll never see those things much if at all from Wiggins. I still believe we might.

I think Wiggins competitiveness should be separate from his motor/Q score. I think it's pretty clear Wiggins has a high level of competitiveness. Sure maybe it doesn't go to every phase of the game but we have all seen him step up his game against certain opponents. Sam Mitchell told Wolfson to go look up Wiggins matched up against Butler. I don't remember what game he was referring to but this one looks pretty good. Lol

https://youtu.be/ZjEdHaytFaQ

I think competitiveness is essentially synonymous with motor. Basketball IQ is something different, but almost as important. Andrew's seemingly slower reaction could be a function of low basketball IQ I guess. But if he's intensely competitive, he should have a high motor. I think we've seen flashes from Andrew, but not the sort of sustained intensity he needs to show to be an elite player.

Interesting article on hoops-rumors, comparing the merits of giving Wiggins a max contract versus Embiid. Here's an insightful paragraph from that article:

"Both the Sixers and Timberwolves locked up their respective youngsters because of their potential. In Embiid's case, it's his potential to stay healthy. For Wiggins, it's his potential to develop into a more well-rounded, complete player."

I thought that passage summed up the comparison really well. There's a poll at the end of the article asking which max deal made the most sense. So far, a strong majority favor the Wiggins deal. I agree. I'll bet on potential development of over potential of a repeatedly injured player to stay healthy. If both stay healthy, then I see Embiid as the better player.

I echo Lip and Drew on this one. I have no doubt Wiggins works hard to improve his game, takes care of his body, etc. That's different than when the bright lights are on, the opposing team gets a long rebound and you half-ass your way back on defense. Or decide to let someone else go dive to get that loose ball. Or get caught ball watching as your man cuts to the hoop on you for a wide open layup. Or fails to make that "second effort" after getting caught up in a screen to recover and still contest the shot.

And on Sam Mitchell, I can't stand that guy. Every time Doogie has him on he has to somehow refer back to the way he handled Wiggins and LaVine when he was their coach and how that has led to their current success in building out the roster. Nothing he says is objective when it comes to the Wolves, Wiggins, or LaVine because he's always trying to shine the most positive light possible on his tenure as assistant coach and coach. I also think he's not the brightest bulb in the bunch. There is a reason no one has hired him back into the NBA.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Yes, it's the motor, not his work ethic. Reviews coming out of college, his NBA stats to date and my own eye-test suggest that Wiggins is lacking a degree of mental focus or intensity that any great player has to have. But Thibs has seen a lot more of Wiggins than any of us -- up close -- and he has gone out of his way to praise Andrew's competitiveness. That's why I haven't given up yet on the possibility that Wiggins can eventually come close to achieving his elite potential.

The phase Thibs has used a lot to describe Butler is "multiple-effort." He has referred a lot to Butler as a multiple effort guy. He used the same phrase to describe Taj. I know exactly what Thibs means. It's that competitiveness and intensity that drives a player to go up in a crowd for a rebound, follow up his missed shot by crashing the boards to put up another shot, and chase down loose balls even if it means hitting the floor and losing some skin. Those are the things you see Butler do repeatedly. Note that Gorgui and Bazz do those things a lot too. I've seen flashes of those things from Wiggins in the few preseason games this year. Those are the things I'll be looking for from him far more this season. I know that some are convinced we'll never see those things much if at all from Wiggins. I still believe we might.

I think Wiggins competitiveness should be separate from his motor/Q score. I think it's pretty clear Wiggins has a high level of competitiveness. Sure maybe it doesn't go to every phase of the game but we have all seen him step up his game against certain opponents. Sam Mitchell told Wolfson to go look up Wiggins matched up against Butler. I don't remember what game he was referring to but this one looks pretty good. Lol

https://youtu.be/ZjEdHaytFaQ

I agree with this. Which is why I think the issue is mental. He works his ass off to get a bucket, he also digs in when guarding one on one which is why Thibs (and Sam before him) repeatedly put him on the best wing 1-3 for all of last season. He does sway in and out with his engagement in the team defending concepts and clearly is not used to being the guy who goes and gets those rebounds. I think this may be because his athleticism always made him the lead guard growing up. These are areas that can be improved by some mental conditioning (which I'm sure Thibs has been trying to address) but are completely separate from his competitiveness as I see it. I also think this is why Thibs speaks so highly of Andrew's work ethic and game (both on and off the court).

lipoli390 wrote:Interesting article on hoops-rumors, comparing the merits of giving Wiggins a max contract versus Embiid. Here's an insightful paragraph from that article:

"Both the Sixers and Timberwolves locked up their respective youngsters because of their potential. In Embiid's case, it's his potential to stay healthy. For Wiggins, it's his potential to develop into a more well-rounded, complete player."

I thought that passage summed up the comparison really well. There's a poll at the end of the article asking which max deal made the most sense. So far, a strong majority favor the Wiggins deal. I agree. I'll bet on potential development of over potential of a repeatedly injured player to stay healthy. If both stay healthy, then I see Embiid as the better player.

That's a good point. I picked up Embiid in the 7th or 8th round of my fantasy team last year and when he played, he was easily my second best player after Harden. In real life, when he plays, he's already arguably one of the top 3 centers in the entire NBA. He's just totally unstoppable. But you can't count on that guy to stay healthy. He looks like a giant, overgrown deer out there. So huge, so dominant, and yet so fragile at the same time. That's why, as I understand it, his contract has qualifiers for health that would offer Philly an escape hatch from the contract if he becomes too injured to play. I don't know if the full extent of those qualifiers have been reported, but that really minimizes the risk for them. I have to believe there are a lot of qualifiers or Philly would just have waited until next year to extend him. They'd have a totally acceptable excuse for waiting until next year given his injury history.

You can't add qualifiers for guys averaging a certain number of rebounds, assists, and 50/50 balls can you?

One question I have is what would have been the downside of waiting until next year to extend Wiggins? He'd still be an RFA so we could be sure we'd get him back, right? That would give the team more time to be sure that Wiggins will actually improve. Isn't extending him now a little like betting on a poker hand a turn early when we could instead see another card turned over before making a bet?

EDIT: Also, the market is going to be so amazing for teams next year. There are so many players becoming free agents and so little money to spend. There are gonna be some amazing deals signed next year. Wouldn't it be better to sign Wiggins in that market, when there might be the possibility of getting him for less than the max even if he does show some improvement?

SameOldDrew wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Interesting article on hoops-rumors, comparing the merits of giving Wiggins a max contract versus Embiid. Here's an insightful paragraph from that article:

"Both the Sixers and Timberwolves locked up their respective youngsters because of their potential. In Embiid's case, it's his potential to stay healthy. For Wiggins, it's his potential to develop into a more well-rounded, complete player."

I thought that passage summed up the comparison really well. There's a poll at the end of the article asking which max deal made the most sense. So far, a strong majority favor the Wiggins deal. I agree. I'll bet on potential development of over potential of a repeatedly injured player to stay healthy. If both stay healthy, then I see Embiid as the better player.

That's a good point. I picked up Embiid in the 7th or 8th round of my fantasy team last year and when he played, he was easily my second best player after Harden. In real life, when he plays, he's already arguably one of the top 3 centers in the entire NBA. He's just totally unstoppable. But you can't count on that guy to stay healthy. He looks like a giant, overgrown deer out there. So huge, so dominant, and yet so fragile at the same time. That's why, as I understand it, his contract has qualifiers for health that would offer Philly an escape hatch from the contract if he becomes too injured to play. I don't know if the full extent of those qualifiers have been reported, but that really minimizes the risk for them. I have to believe there are a lot of qualifiers or Philly would just have waited until next year to extend him. They'd have a totally acceptable excuse for waiting until next year given his injury history.

You can't add qualifiers for guys averaging a certain number of rebounds, assists, and 50/50 balls can you?

One question I have is what would have been the downside of waiting to extend Wiggins until next year? He'd still be an RFA so we could be sure we'd get him back, right? That would give the team more time to be sure that Wiggins will actually improve. Isn't extending him now a little like betting on a poker hand a turn early when we could instead see another card turned over before making a bet?

I believe this article breaks down the Embiid contract well enough.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20985023/joel-embiid-extension-protects-philadelphia-76ers-case-contractually-specific-catastrophic-injury

That biggest reason to get the deal done now is that you have a straight 5 year deal with no surprises. If he gets to RFA and you don't get something done then a team can come in and offer him a deal with outs that you don't want. Some people aren't sold on Wiggins. The Wolves clearly are and want him locked up for the longest term possible. I think you can disagree with their evaluation of Wiggins but respect the process of putting their faith in him and getting him locked up. Something is gonna have to really go wrong for him not to get a pretty lucrative contract next summer even if there won't be a ton of money available.

I got some inside dope on the Wig deal (and a couple other things) yesterday, and thought I would share them. I asked why the Wig deal took so long to complete when it was obvious to any knowledgeable fan that Wig was going to get a max deal. The reason was that Wig was asking for some things beyond the money, and Glen was not going to yield...both from a legality and fairness standpoint. For instance, the players stay in standard hotel rooms when they are travelling, and Wig was asking for a suite that would be a couple levels above where his teammates were staying. I'm not schooled enough in the NBA rules to know whether giving perks like that to a player above a max contract would be a violation, but I'm sure Glen got religion with the Joe Smith fiasco and isn't going to test the limits again. Further, it would have sent a bad message to the rest of the team of Wig got something like that. At first this story made me think less of Wig, but my girl friend took a softer approach. She said "look, he's still a kid, and doesn't understand how this would look bad. And if you don't ask, you don't get". I guess that's right. So now I understand why a seemingly simple contract took weeks to complete.

I also got some insight into Glen's relationship with Thibs. While he's not pleased with the results last year (after all, he's a fan as well as an owner), he's not displeased with his choice of Thibs as coach. What he is unhappy about though is Thibs' sideline demeanor, and especially the raw language and barrage of F bombs. Glen is a rather conservative guy and sits right behind Thibs (Lip is pretty close too), and finds him embarrassing much of the time. I learned yesterday that he spoke sharply to him about this over the summer, and told him he needed to act more respectably during games. Let's see if it has an effect...I think it will. Some might say Thibs has his contract, so Glen has no leverage. But Thibs has to have his next contract in mind, so he likely will do what Glen asks. I don't know if this will help the team (although guys like KAT seemed to be bothered at times), but it will definitely improve my enjoyment level when I'm at games!

LST - Interesting info. Thanks for sharing. I'm a bit disturbed by the request for a room separate from and above his teammates. It seems arrogant. But maybe he needs quiet. A friend of mine knows one of Andrew's former personal chefs. Apparently, Wiggins is very, very particular about what he wants and can be a jerk if he doesn't get exactly what he wants. But he still seems like a good guy who is liked by his teammates and coaches. So I'm not worried.