longstrangetrip wrote:Not watching, but just checked the box score...no good, except for Towns. Tonight it looks like the bench is letting us down...Jones is a -15 and Tolliver is a -16. The defense is a disaster again tonight with another 60 point half.
I know Wiggins bashing has reached "dead horse bashing" level, but since I haven't been a participant, I'm going to vent a little. It looks like this will be his 4th consecutive horrible game. So far he is shooting 12-33 in preseason and has 1 (one) assist. Those are not the numbers of a max contract guy...more like a journeyman. Since he seemed to have his best games last year when Butler was out, I was holding on to some Wig optimism for this season...but it's evaporating rapidly. His preseason play is the worst we have seen from him, at least on the offensive side of the ball.
Hes been bad on offense so far. The good news is that he isnt taking alot of shots and is basically the 4th option on the floor.
His defense does look improved though.
Don't know what to say to this...
Somebody at the game wrote that his defense looked active. He was on middleton for most of the night (kat was on giannis).That poster also mentioned that wiggs was just not a part of the offense.
Even against george the other game, wiggs made him work for his shots. George got half his points on switches or when wiggs was off.
His offense has been horrid, but his defense hasnt. Not great, but not bad. Hes definitely not living up to his contract though.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:C'mon Glen, this just isn't working. Pull the plug and let's move on. I'm convinced that Thibs really doesn't know how to coach defense in this era.
I agree, Cool. Glen has to move on. I don't know what's left on Thibodeau's contract, but it can't be more than another $10 million. That's less than 10% of the player payroll in one season. It's an even smaller percentage of the total Timberwolves operations budget over just one year. It seems penny wise and pound foolish to keep Thibodeau around given the current pathetic state of the team and Thibodeau's central role in shaping the current state of this team. Even if you don't hold him accountable for the state of the team, it should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that he's not the guy to take us forward. But truth is, Thibodeau wanted to control the organization completely as PBO and head coach. Total control carries with it total responsibility and accountability. The team is in a terrible state he has to be held accountable. Moreover, the negativity the eminates from him is palpable and has to be removed from this organization as soon as possible. He's not going to coach this team into the playoffs and the team won't develop or improve under his coaching.
Still nobody coming up with what to do after dumping Thibs. We are screwed.
I would fired Thibs from both his positions. Then I'd elevate Layden to PBO on an interim basis and immediately begin a search for a permanent new PBO to be in place before next May - hopefully much sooner. I don't have any names in mind at the moment, but I'd be looking at assistant GMs and GMs in the Spurs, Jazz and Celtics organizations for candidates. I would hire McHale as interim head coach while we search for a permanent if Mac would agree. If McHale says not, then I'd elevate either Andy Greer or Ryan Saunders serve as interim head coach as the organization searches for a new head coach in the mold of a Brad Stevens or Schneider.
We might still be screwed this season with the interim measures I've suggested, but at least we'd be taking action and ridding this organization of Thibodeau's negativity and obviously poor coaching. As I've mentioned a million times, Thibodeau did not better than Sam Mitchell with the same but more experienced group of players. And even if he could still be a good head coach in the NBA, it's clear he's lost this team - assuming he ever had them. Sometimes it's apparent that you just need to make a change to clear the stench. Well, I'd say it's more than readily apparent that change needs to be made now.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:C'mon Glen, this just isn't working. Pull the plug and let's move on. I'm convinced that Thibs really doesn't know how to coach defense in this era.
I agree, Cool. Glen has to move on. I don't know what's left on Thibodeau's contract, but it can't be more than another $10 million. That's less than 10% of the player payroll in one season. It's an even smaller percentage of the total Timberwolves operations budget over just one year. It seems penny wise and pound foolish to keep Thibodeau around given the current pathetic state of the team and Thibodeau's central role in shaping the current state of this team. Even if you don't hold him accountable for the state of the team, it should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that he's not the guy to take us forward. But truth is, Thibodeau wanted to control the organization completely as PBO and head coach. Total control carries with it total responsibility and accountability. The team is in a terrible state he has to be held accountable. Moreover, the negativity the eminates from him is palpable and has to be removed from this organization as soon as possible. He's not going to coach this team into the playoffs and the team won't develop or improve under his coaching.
Still nobody coming up with what to do after dumping Thibs. We are screwed.
I would fired Thibs from both his positions. Then I'd elevate Layden to PBO on an interim basis and immediately begin a search for a permanent new PBO to be in place before next May - hopefully much sooner. I don't have any names in mind at the moment, but I'd be looking at assistant GMs and GMs in the Spurs, Jazz and Celtics organizations for candidates. I would hire McHale as interim head coach while we search for a permanent if Mac would agree. If McHale says not, then I'd elevate either Andy Greer or Ryan Saunders serve as interim head coach as the organization searches for a new head coach in the mold of a Brad Stevens or Schneider.
We might still be screwed this season with the interim measures I've suggested, but at least we'd be taking action and ridding this organization of Thibodeau's negativity and obviously poor coaching. As I've mentioned a million times, Thibodeau did not better than Sam Mitchell with the same but more experienced group of players. And even if he could still be a good head coach in the NBA, it's clear he's lost this team - assuming he ever had them. Sometimes it's apparent that you just need to make a change to clear the stench. Well, I'd say it's more than readily apparent that change needs to be made now.
If that's the plan I say we let Thibs coach this team and let him fail gloriously after 20 games or whatever. Sure there are plenty of reasons to fire him but this team was 2 wins away from being a 3 seed in the West last year. Letting Greer take over can be done a couple months from now too. Glen and the franchise can say they gave Thibs a chance to do his thing and it really didn't work. Does it matter? Probably not this season. Seems likely to be a lost one pretty much no matter what unless Thibs ends up having some sort of 2017-2018 Doc Rivers coaching renaissance (not expecting it to happen).
The most interesting part of this game was Thibs actually rested Rose. It makes sense to do so but he did do it which does actually feel a bit unexpected.
There are several decent options in moving past Thibs in both PBO and HC positions. I've laid out one scenario I'd be in favor of and can do so again if requested, however, I still think Thibs and Layden will start and finish this season out as their last.
He's pretty much buried himself to this point. One awful regular season on top of it will be the finishing touch. And make no mistake about it, this team is on its way to the lottery with or without Thibs. I'm all for a conventional search in the off-season and letting those guys start fresh instead of being rushed into the jobs as the season has already started.
Yeah, I think the issue is he's lost the team. Glen is going to let him hang himself during the regular season, where clearly we are no match for the majority of teams in the Western Conference. We can compete with Sacramento, Phoenix, and.......may be Dallas?
Camden wrote:There are several decent options in moving past Thibs in both PBO and HC positions. I've laid out one scenario I'd be in favor of and can do so again if requested, however, I still think Thibs and Layden will start and finish this season out as their last.
He's pretty much buried himself to this point. One awful regular season on top of it will be the finishing touch. And make no mistake about it, this team is on its way to the lottery with or without Thibs. I'm all for a conventional search in the off-season and letting those guys start fresh instead of being rushed into the jobs as the season has already started.
Maybe, Cam, but I don't think so...and I certainly don't hope so. Glen sits courtside almost every game, and he certainly noticed the chorus of boos when Thibs was announced before the OkC game. And those boos are only going to get louder, and crowds will get smaller. Thibs' record in coaching a Wolves team without Jimmy Butler was 31-51, and this year's team appears ready to duplicate that record...Glen will not tolerate that, and should make a move before the season is 20 games old. Thibs' only chance to keep his job is if Butler isn't traded and elects to play when the regular season starts...as he indicated 4 days ago. If that happens, the Wolves go back to being a 46-48 win team, and the crowd may tire of booing Thibs.
Camden wrote:There are several decent options in moving past Thibs in both PBO and HC positions. I've laid out one scenario I'd be in favor of and can do so again if requested, however, I still think Thibs and Layden will start and finish this season out as their last.
He's pretty much buried himself to this point. One awful regular season on top of it will be the finishing touch. And make no mistake about it, this team is on its way to the lottery with or without Thibs. I'm all for a conventional search in the off-season and letting those guys start fresh instead of being rushed into the jobs as the season has already started.
Maybe, Cam, but I don't think so...and I certainly don't hope so. Glen sits courtside almost every game, and he certainly noticed the chorus of boos when Thibs was announced before the OkC game. And those boos are only going to get louder, and crowds will get smaller. Thibs' record in coaching a Wolves team without Jimmy Butler was 31-51, and this year's team appears ready to duplicate that record...Glen will not tolerate that, and should make a move before the season is 20 games old. Thibs' only chance to keep his job is if Butler isn't traded and elects to play when the regular season starts...as he indicated 4 days ago. If that happens, the Wolves go back to being a 46-48 win team, and the crowd may tire of booing Thibs.
Glen will not tolerate that... Based on what? How many years of David Kahn did he tolerate? How many years of embarrassment did he tolerate? And Thibs isn't even close to Kahn level bad.
Glen Taylor is a pushover and rarely shows that he knows what he's doing in terms of running an NBA franchise. Allowing Thibs to stay this year will give Glen an overwhelming case for him to fire Thibs and I think that's what he'll wait for.
Camden wrote:There are several decent options in moving past Thibs in both PBO and HC positions. I've laid out one scenario I'd be in favor of and can do so again if requested, however, I still think Thibs and Layden will start and finish this season out as their last.
He's pretty much buried himself to this point. One awful regular season on top of it will be the finishing touch. And make no mistake about it, this team is on its way to the lottery with or without Thibs. I'm all for a conventional search in the off-season and letting those guys start fresh instead of being rushed into the jobs as the season has already started.
Maybe, Cam, but I don't think so...and I certainly don't hope so. Glen sits courtside almost every game, and he certainly noticed the chorus of boos when Thibs was announced before the OkC game. And those boos are only going to get louder, and crowds will get smaller. Thibs' record in coaching a Wolves team without Jimmy Butler was 31-51, and this year's team appears ready to duplicate that record...Glen will not tolerate that, and should make a move before the season is 20 games old. Thibs' only chance to keep his job is if Butler isn't traded and elects to play when the regular season starts...as he indicated 4 days ago. If that happens, the Wolves go back to being a 46-48 win team, and the crowd may tire of booing Thibs.
Honestly is there a good coach that will come here if the opinion around the league is that our two young max players are soft and can't take discipline? Is there a a good available coach out there that looks at how Glen handled the Jimmy Butler trade discussion going over Thibs head and thinks, yeah I wan't to coach for that owner? Nothing will be solved unless Taylor sells the team to a better owner that also keeps the team in Minnesota. Until that happens we will bring in a new coach and in 2020 we will all be complaining that coach is the problem and needs to go!
Camden wrote:There are several decent options in moving past Thibs in both PBO and HC positions. I've laid out one scenario I'd be in favor of and can do so again if requested, however, I still think Thibs and Layden will start and finish this season out as their last.
He's pretty much buried himself to this point. One awful regular season on top of it will be the finishing touch. And make no mistake about it, this team is on its way to the lottery with or without Thibs. I'm all for a conventional search in the off-season and letting those guys start fresh instead of being rushed into the jobs as the season has already started.
Maybe, Cam, but I don't think so...and I certainly don't hope so. Glen sits courtside almost every game, and he certainly noticed the chorus of boos when Thibs was announced before the OkC game. And those boos are only going to get louder, and crowds will get smaller. Thibs' record in coaching a Wolves team without Jimmy Butler was 31-51, and this year's team appears ready to duplicate that record...Glen will not tolerate that, and should make a move before the season is 20 games old. Thibs' only chance to keep his job is if Butler isn't traded and elects to play when the regular season starts...as he indicated 4 days ago. If that happens, the Wolves go back to being a 46-48 win team, and the crowd may tire of booing Thibs.
Honestly is there a good coach that will come here if the opinion around the league is that our two young max players are soft and can't take discipline? Is there a a good available coach out there that looks at how Glen handled the Jimmy Butler trade discussion going over Thibs head and thinks, yeah I wan't to coach for that owner? Nothing will be solved unless Taylor sells the team to a better owner that also keeps the team in Minnesota. Until that happens we will bring in a new coach and in 2020 we will all be complaining that coach is the problem and needs to go!
Come on, let's get real here. Towns was selected to the allstar team last season by, guess who - NBA coaches!! Potential future Wolves coaching candidates aren't going to think Towns is "soft or can't take discipline." There's no evidence of either. Towns' numbers and talent speak for themselves. If you watch him live as I have for over 120 games you see a guy who plays extremely hard. His instincts on the defensive end need work. That's not going to deter potential head coaches from coming here.
What might give coaching candidates pause is the lack of high caliber players around KAT. They might also be concerned about Wiggins, Teague and Gorgui, who all have contracts that exceed their on-court play. But NBA head coaching positions are highly coveted with few opportunities. So it's nonsense to suggest that good coach candidates won't want to come here. NBA front office executive positions are also highly coveted with few opportunities so there will always be good candidates to replace Thibodeau in that position as well. Taylor's recent intervention in the Butler matter was caused by Thibodeau's insubordination. In Taylor's long tenure as owner, there has never been a situation where he publicly contradicted his PBO in ordering a trade. And let's not forget that Taylor gives his PBO's a very long leash - i.e., he let's them stay far too long. So you actually get more job security with Taylor than you do with most NBA owners.
The issue with Glen Taylor isn't that he's terrible to work for -- quite the contrary if you ask talk to people who have worked for him in the basketball department as I have. And it's not as if good candidates won't jump at the chance to replace Thibodeau as head coach or PBO. The issue is, and always has been, Glen's bad judgment when it comes to hiring his front office executives and coaches. But he's the owner and something has to be done. Right Thibodeau has to be terminated and replaced. For now the new head coach and PBO should be hired on an interim trial basis with a full season to complete a search to fill those positions on a more permanent basis. I wish Glen weren't making the hiring decision, but maybe he'll get it right this time. Even a blind squirrel .... :)
