Minnesota Sports Forum

kekgeek1 wrote:

worldK wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:We are still thin on wings if Thibs won't make Okogie the 9th guy. Any subtle problem with Wiggs or Roco makes us super vulnerable. Josh should be getting all of Tyus' minutes as he's been absolute garbage this year. Even if the output isn't there Josh needs the minutes as Tyus is never going to be more than a backup in this league. Vet coaches don't play rookies, it's so sad because the solution seems so obvious.

To be fair... I think his hands are tied a bit at PG.

I don't know if giving Rose full control of the offense is going to appease anybody already frustrated with MN's iso-heavy sets.

Because statistically, he's becoming a lot closer to 2017 NYK Rose than he is vintage MVP Rose. There's still a place for that guy, definitely. But giving him even more control could backfire pretty easily.

Rose is already in full iso mode with the bench. What is the difference with Okogie missing the open shots instead of Tyus? I suspect Rose will carry the bench unit numbers the same way he is now and Josh may offer some D and rebounding that we aren't getting when Tyus is in there.

Maybe.

It might seem like Jones is worthless and doing nothing, because he's the epitome of a caretaker player and shooting only 33% on a very low number of attempts... but is there to curtail some of Rose's workload... getting things moving a bit.

Not saying the move isn't warranted... only that there are reasons for Rose and Jones being out there together a lot. And until recently, that combo had some good luck as a second unit.

That may seem to be the case. But rose/tyus combo is not good on defense. Rose is simply outmatched vs bigger wings.

Also, witth tyus as the point, rose job is to score. If rose is running the point with the 2nd unit, he will make an effort to get others involved. The dynamic changes. Josh needs playing time to develop. Tyus is what he is. A backup point who is currently the 3rd best pg on the team.

I've called for saric staric starting with taj as the backup 5 and tolliver the backup 4 since we made the trade. I understand thibs going with the seniors of the team in g and tyus at the start and keeping taj in the first unit. But saric is the pf of the future. Thibs is playing him 30min a game. Might as well start him and manage his minutes better than aying him 15-17min in one stint.

I envision a roco/tolliver/taj/rose/okogie 2nd unit to out run and play at a fast paced. Rose and okogie play fast. Taj Is good at rim running. Tolliver is good at trailing 3's. Roco fits any style. Saric plays well with both towns and wig. That ahould be the rotation.

G and tyus were given their chance. They didn't suck and played their roles. But they didnt lockdown those rotation spots with solid play either. We have 2 other guys that deserve minutes and might make the team better with their respective skills. Time to play tolliver and okogie and recerse roles of saric and taj.

Lineups with rose and tyus actually have been very good defensively this year

What about lineups with rose and okogie? We dont know because we dont see it. It could be better or it could be worse. It all comes down to what is best for the team. Tyus is what he is. He is also an expiring. Okogie needs time to develop.

worldK wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

worldK wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:We are still thin on wings if Thibs won't make Okogie the 9th guy. Any subtle problem with Wiggs or Roco makes us super vulnerable. Josh should be getting all of Tyus' minutes as he's been absolute garbage this year. Even if the output isn't there Josh needs the minutes as Tyus is never going to be more than a backup in this league. Vet coaches don't play rookies, it's so sad because the solution seems so obvious.

To be fair... I think his hands are tied a bit at PG.

I don't know if giving Rose full control of the offense is going to appease anybody already frustrated with MN's iso-heavy sets.

Because statistically, he's becoming a lot closer to 2017 NYK Rose than he is vintage MVP Rose. There's still a place for that guy, definitely. But giving him even more control could backfire pretty easily.

Rose is already in full iso mode with the bench. What is the difference with Okogie missing the open shots instead of Tyus? I suspect Rose will carry the bench unit numbers the same way he is now and Josh may offer some D and rebounding that we aren't getting when Tyus is in there.

Maybe.

It might seem like Jones is worthless and doing nothing, because he's the epitome of a caretaker player and shooting only 33% on a very low number of attempts... but is there to curtail some of Rose's workload... getting things moving a bit.

Not saying the move isn't warranted... only that there are reasons for Rose and Jones being out there together a lot. And until recently, that combo had some good luck as a second unit.

That may seem to be the case. But rose/tyus combo is not good on defense. Rose is simply outmatched vs bigger wings.

Also, witth tyus as the point, rose job is to score. If rose is running the point with the 2nd unit, he will make an effort to get others involved. The dynamic changes. Josh needs playing time to develop. Tyus is what he is. A backup point who is currently the 3rd best pg on the team.

I've called for saric staric starting with taj as the backup 5 and tolliver the backup 4 since we made the trade. I understand thibs going with the seniors of the team in g and tyus at the start and keeping taj in the first unit. But saric is the pf of the future. Thibs is playing him 30min a game. Might as well start him and manage his minutes better than aying him 15-17min in one stint.

I envision a roco/tolliver/taj/rose/okogie 2nd unit to out run and play at a fast paced. Rose and okogie play fast. Taj Is good at rim running. Tolliver is good at trailing 3's. Roco fits any style. Saric plays well with both towns and wig. That ahould be the rotation.

G and tyus were given their chance. They didn't suck and played their roles. But they didnt lockdown those rotation spots with solid play either. We have 2 other guys that deserve minutes and might make the team better with their respective skills. Time to play tolliver and okogie and recerse roles of saric and taj.

Lineups with rose and tyus actually have been very good defensively this year

What about lineups with rose and okogie? We dont know because we dont see it. It could be better or it could be worse. It all comes down to what is best for the team. Tyus is what he is. He is also an expiring. Okogie needs time to develop.

People love Tolliver's 3 point shooting and they should and this isn't quite fair but just for fun this season per 36 Dieng doubles up Tolliver in rebounds. 10-5. That's kind of a big deal. Just sayin and I'm a big Tolliver fan.

worldK wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

worldK wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:We are still thin on wings if Thibs won't make Okogie the 9th guy. Any subtle problem with Wiggs or Roco makes us super vulnerable. Josh should be getting all of Tyus' minutes as he's been absolute garbage this year. Even if the output isn't there Josh needs the minutes as Tyus is never going to be more than a backup in this league. Vet coaches don't play rookies, it's so sad because the solution seems so obvious.

To be fair... I think his hands are tied a bit at PG.

I don't know if giving Rose full control of the offense is going to appease anybody already frustrated with MN's iso-heavy sets.

Because statistically, he's becoming a lot closer to 2017 NYK Rose than he is vintage MVP Rose. There's still a place for that guy, definitely. But giving him even more control could backfire pretty easily.

Rose is already in full iso mode with the bench. What is the difference with Okogie missing the open shots instead of Tyus? I suspect Rose will carry the bench unit numbers the same way he is now and Josh may offer some D and rebounding that we aren't getting when Tyus is in there.

Maybe.

It might seem like Jones is worthless and doing nothing, because he's the epitome of a caretaker player and shooting only 33% on a very low number of attempts... but is there to curtail some of Rose's workload... getting things moving a bit.

Not saying the move isn't warranted... only that there are reasons for Rose and Jones being out there together a lot. And until recently, that combo had some good luck as a second unit.

That may seem to be the case. But rose/tyus combo is not good on defense. Rose is simply outmatched vs bigger wings.

Also, witth tyus as the point, rose job is to score. If rose is running the point with the 2nd unit, he will make an effort to get others involved. The dynamic changes. Josh needs playing time to develop. Tyus is what he is. A backup point who is currently the 3rd best pg on the team.

I've called for saric staric starting with taj as the backup 5 and tolliver the backup 4 since we made the trade. I understand thibs going with the seniors of the team in g and tyus at the start and keeping taj in the first unit. But saric is the pf of the future. Thibs is playing him 30min a game. Might as well start him and manage his minutes better than aying him 15-17min in one stint.

I envision a roco/tolliver/taj/rose/okogie 2nd unit to out run and play at a fast paced. Rose and okogie play fast. Taj Is good at rim running. Tolliver is good at trailing 3's. Roco fits any style. Saric plays well with both towns and wig. That ahould be the rotation.

G and tyus were given their chance. They didn't suck and played their roles. But they didnt lockdown those rotation spots with solid play either. We have 2 other guys that deserve minutes and might make the team better with their respective skills. Time to play tolliver and okogie and recerse roles of saric and taj.

Lineups with rose and tyus actually have been very good defensively this year

What about lineups with rose and okogie? We dont know because we dont see it. It could be better or it could be worse. It all comes down to what is best for the team. Tyus is what he is. He is also an expiring. Okogie needs time to develop.

We have had 336 possessions with okogie and rose and we are 2 pts worse per 100 possessions defensively compared to about 600ish possessions of tyus and rose together

Back to Abes original post. I'm curious about my theory that you need a dominate iso wing or PG in this league to get over the top.

Wiggins is bad at top of the key iso. Usually ends up in turnover or a contested long 2. Wiggins in my opinion is at his best off of ball rotation where he can just attack straight at the hoop when the defender is rotating.

With towns for him getting the ball it is determined by other players in the PnR or in the post where he can be mugged fighting for position.

My main point is we have to work to get these guys in their best spots to succeed.

Now look at the best teams in the NBA and who they can give the ball to at the top of the key and they can create successfully.

Warriors: curry and Durant
Rockets: paul and harden
Lakers: lebron
Sixers: butler
Celtics: Irving
Bucks: Greek Freak
Raptors: Leonard
Thunder: Westbrook and George

I would say all those teams have a shot at the finals and all have guys you can give the ball to, they dribble to the top of the key and create. This is something the wolves just don't have. We have to work to get our best players the ball in spots they can succeed

Keek, props to you for looking up those numbers. My main point is a rose/okogie backcourt with cov or wig at sf. I would like to have a longer look at that combo. That probably happened already and more props if you can liok that up as well.

I checked the numbers and combo Rose, Okogie and Wiggins have played just 38 minutes together and had defensive rating 108.1. Obviously sample size is too small for any conclusion. Rose, Okogie and Cob have played even less together.

Fun fact Okogie and Covington have played 13 minutes together and have defensive rating 46.9. It would be fun to see them playing more together.

Mikkeman wrote:I checked the numbers and combo Rose, Okogie and Wiggins have played just 38 minutes together and had defensive rating 108.1. Obviously sample size is too small for any conclusion. Rose, Okogie and Cob have played even less together.

Fun fact Okogie and Covington have played 13 minutes together and have defensive rating 46.9. It would be fun to see them playing more together.

I would imagine the majority of rose and okogie possessions came when Teague was hurt and butler skipped a game early in the year

kekgeek1 wrote:Back to Abes original post. I'm curious about my theory that you need a dominate iso wing or PG in this league to get over the top.

Wiggins is bad at top of the key iso. Usually ends up in turnover or a contested long 2. Wiggins in my opinion is at his best off of ball rotation where he can just attack straight at the hoop when the defender is rotating.

With towns for him getting the ball it is determined by other players in the PnR or in the post where he can be mugged fighting for position.

My main point is we have to work to get these guys in their best spots to succeed.

Now look at the best teams in the NBA and who they can give the ball to at the top of the key and they can create successfully.

Warriors: curry and Durant
Rockets: paul and harden
Lakers: lebron
Sixers: butler
Celtics: Irving
Bucks: Greek Freak
Raptors: Leonard
Thunder: Westbrook and George

I would say all those teams have a shot at the finals and all have guys you can give the ball to, they dribble to the top of the key and create. This is something the wolves just don't have. We have to work to get our best players the ball in spots they can succeed

This is why some folks say Wiggins is the key to greatness for the team. And even though Thibs and prior coaches have tried developing him for years as an iso play maker, he just doesn't have the handles and passing chops.

Okogie is probably the one guy on the current roster that could get there, although it's a long shot and will take years to develop. BUT...he has two things going for him:

1) He has an elite physical profile - super long arms, strong body, excellent vertical, and big time motor. Wiggins is missing two of these attributes. I mean, if you were to design an ideal 2-guard physically, Josh Okogie might be it.

2) He has shown some solid passing instincts that I think could be developed over time. Guys like DeRozan, Durant, Butler, and Leonard were not great passers coming out of college. They all averaged 2.5 assists or less. Yet all eventually became very good passers.

The team should be doing everything possible to develop Okogie into a legit two-way player, the same way they did for Wiggins. If Okogie puts in the work and stays healthy, I think he has a very good shot to become a good 2-way wing.....may be even great.

Zach Lowe's lead "things I like" is "KAT since the Butler trade"...and the stats prove why. We complain about the Wolves not running their offense through Karl enough, but since the trade he is posting up 19 times per 100 possessions...tops in the league, and a huge jump from his pre-trade 12.5. It's both sides of the court too, as opponents are shooting a paltry 49.5% at the rim...a Gobertian number as Zach says (I can only assume that word is pronounced Go-ber-shun). His last five games are all-star numbers: 25.6/11/3.2 with 2,4 blocks and 1.2 steals, on 53% shooting (43.5% from beyond the arc). Quite promising for a kid who's still only 23.


(a little positivity in the midst of an 0-3 road trip)

longstrangetrip wrote:Zach Lowe's lead "things I like" is "KAT since the Butler trade"...and the stats prove why. We complain about the Wolves not running their offense through Karl enough, but since the trade he is posting up 19 times per 100 possessions...tops in the league, and a huge jump from his pre-trade 12.5. It's both sides of the court too, as opponents are shooting a paltry 49.5% at the rim...a Gobertian number as Zach says (I can only assume that word is pronounced Go-ber-shun). His last five games are all-star numbers: 25.6/11/3.2 with 2,4 blocks and 1.2 steals, on 53% shooting (43.5% from beyond the arc). Quite promising for a kid who's still only 23.


(a little positivity in the midst of an 0-3 road trip)

Thank you for this dose of positivity. I see four true indisputable positives on the Wolves current roster - KAT, Covington, Saric and Okogie. I'll list Derrick Rose as a runner-up to the top 4.

Moving forward everyone else on this roster should be for sale. More importantly, our head coach, as the #1 negative, should be replaced.

Teague and Wiggins are our most talented players outside the four positives I listed. Unfortunately, I don't think Teague has any meaningful trade value at his salary. He might be one of those players with negative trade value -- i.e., you have to give up something else of value to induce another team to take him. There might be another team willing to give us some value for Wiggins, but I'm not sure. And I don't think we'd get enough value in return to merit trading him. His recent improvement gives me hope that he might still become a very good player for us. I'd really like to see him under a head coach with an offensive system that plays to Andrew's strengths.

Tolliver should have some value by the trade deadline for a team in the playoff hunt. We should shop him aggressively at the deadline and see if we can get another draft pick or young talent in return. We could probably also get some decent value in return for Taj, but maybe not enough to compensate for his value as an expiring contract unless we get all expiring contracts in return along with an additional draft pick. I wouldn't trade KBD. He's a young talent on a great team-friendly contract. I don't see us getting any value in return for Gorgui.

We'll have to see where this team is at in late January. I'm already convinced the Wolves will be a lottery team this season. If it still looks that way in late January, then it's time to make some trade-deadline moves for draft assets that can be used to draft young talent or to include in trades for players or cap relief. With the right head coach, I can see a bright future for this team build around KAT, Okogie, Covington and Saric - maybe also Wiggins. Derrick Rose and Tyus Jones could also be part of the future for this team. But ideally, the Wolves can acquire another all-star talent to pair with KAT because I still don't see Wiggins rising to that level. Okogie could be come that second star, but the jury is still out obviously. As good as Covington is, he's not an allstar. To be a true contender in the NBA you need two stars, maybe three, as well as a good supporting cast. Right now, we have one star - KAT - and a number of good supporting cast members.