Minnesota Sports Forum

Carlos Danger wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:I'm surprised how much heat KAT gets on here. I agree that I'd like to see him defend better. But at the end of the day, he's got a 25.3 PER, 10.7 WS and 4.6 VORP. Nobody else on the team really comes close to those figures. IMO he's less of the problem than some other guys. This is only KAT's second season and he's been their best player since day one. Of all the players on this team, I'd give KAT a pass. I think he needs more help along the lines of what Q was proposing (get some tough defenders to compliment him).

He plays the most important position defensively and he's one of the worst defenders in the league. You just can't have one way centers and have a good defense. Kevin Love got a lot of heat here defensively so I don't see why it should be different for KAT. The common denominator is neither played D and we just couldn't win much because of it. KG had no help and we still made the playoffs every year because he was an elite defensive anchor. If Towns wants to win he needs to step up defensively pure and simple. The fact that he hasn't really played hard on that end is is worth criticism because it is a significant factor in why we can't win games. What good is 30/15 if it's a layup line on the other end that just leads to highly efficient offense for everyone of the other team?

I won't disagree with a lot of what your wrote. Having a good anchor would help. But I'm just curious what metric you are using to determine he's one of the worst defenders in the NBA? He seems more middle of the pack based on the stats I'm looking at but we might be looking at different things.

From earlier in the season (December 21st). ESPN compared the Wolves future to the Bucks:

"As for Towns, while he hasn't been as bad as Wiggins, he's not far behind. Currently ranked 402nd overall in defensive RPM (minus-1.91), Towns is also dead last among all centers. One season after ranking second among rookies in blocks per game behind only Kristaps Porzingis, Towns has regressed as his blocks per game have dropped from 1.7 to 1.4 despite playing three more minutes.
Only three teams have allowed a better shooting percentage on shots inside the restricted area than Minnesota's 63.2, a number that jumps to 64.4 with Towns in the game. He also has seen both his steal rate and defensive rebound rate fall from his rookie season, not good signs for a potentially high-impact defensive player in his second season."

He's improved over the course of the season, but still far too often we see shots go uncontested at the rim for some unknown reason. We're 7th worst in percentage 6ft from the rim and under and we basically play 2 guys 80% of the minutes.

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Wiggins is gonna get his max deal, so I'm not gonna fight it, but man it's gonna suck to reward a guy who quite frankly isn't putting the work in and I fear he never will because playing half-assed has gotten him to this point.


0 rebounds for a guy who is 6'8''. Just an F at all things intangibles

I think we need to accept the fact that he is a volume scorer and not much else. Folks can hope he'll get better at other things, but until he proves it night and night out, the front office has to go into the offseason assuming otherwise.

So, if you accept the fact he's a pure scorer, you put him at SG and find a SF that defends, hustles, rebounds, chases loose balls, and hopefully can hit the open 3. Let Wiggins be DeMar DeRozan because that's where he's headed right now.

As for Thibs, he has to be disappointed in himself and his team. He brings what is considered the best defensive coaching chops in the NBA and we barely move the needle over the last two years of pathetic defense. Very depressing.

1. Wiggins was playing great defense when our run for the 8 seed began and he just ran out of gas like he has every year because he literally has played the most regular season minutes in the NBA since his rookie year.

2. Thibs can't force guys like Towns to give a shit defensively. There was a point this season where Towns was statistically the worst defensive big in the league (even worse than Okafor). When Towns decides to play defense and not be a revolving door trying to not foul our defense will significantly improve. Defense starts at the rim. Good rim protectors make everyone else better defensively and we have two of the worst rim protectors in the league in Dieng and Towns. Get guys who protect the rim and we can be an average defense which is all we need with our offense to win more than we lose.

On point #1, the whole team was playing better defense for about two or three weeks after the all star break. Otherwise, they've been crap most of the year. As for Wiggins, his minutes and fatigue isn't going to change as long as Thibs is coach and he's counted upon to be our first or second option. It is what it is. If he's our Demar DeRozan, then we need a Wolves version of DeMarre Carroll. I'm fine with that.

On point #2, I somewhat agree, although if you are using the D-RPM metric, then I assume you also believe Wiggins to be one of the worst wing defenders in the league and Rubio to be one of the best PG defenders in the league?

The reality is Thibs is building around KAT and Wig. He needs to recognize their defensive limitations and find guys that can defend the hell out of people and exhibit the mental toughness these two lack. I personally think a traditional rim protector is NOT what they need. Instead a top notch wing defender and a PF that can guard in space would be the two top priorities this offseason. Rookies need not apply.

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Wiggins is gonna get his max deal, so I'm not gonna fight it, but man it's gonna suck to reward a guy who quite frankly isn't putting the work in and I fear he never will because playing half-assed has gotten him to this point.


0 rebounds for a guy who is 6'8''. Just an F at all things intangibles

I think we need to accept the fact that he is a volume scorer and not much else. Folks can hope he'll get better at other things, but until he proves it night and night out, the front office has to go into the offseason assuming otherwise.

So, if you accept the fact he's a pure scorer, you put him at SG and find a SF that defends, hustles, rebounds, chases loose balls, and hopefully can hit the open 3. Let Wiggins be DeMar DeRozan because that's where he's headed right now.

As for Thibs, he has to be disappointed in himself and his team. He brings what is considered the best defensive coaching chops in the NBA and we barely move the needle over the last two years of pathetic defense. Very depressing.

1. Wiggins was playing great defense when our run for the 8 seed began and he just ran out of gas like he has every year because he literally has played the most regular season minutes in the NBA since his rookie year.

2. Thibs can't force guys like Towns to give a shit defensively. There was a point this season where Towns was statistically the worst defensive big in the league (even worse than Okafor). When Towns decides to play defense and not be a revolving door trying to not foul our defense will significantly improve. Defense starts at the rim. Good rim protectors make everyone else better defensively and we have two of the worst rim protectors in the league in Dieng and Towns. Get guys who protect the rim and we can be an average defense which is all we need with our offense to win more than we lose.

On point #1, the whole team was playing better defense for about two or three weeks after the all star break. Otherwise, they've been crap most of the year. As for Wiggins, his minutes and fatigue isn't going to change as long as Thibs is coach and he's counted upon to be our first or second option. It is what it is. If he's our Demar DeRozan, then we need a Wolves version of DeMarre Carroll. I'm fine with that.

On point #2, I somewhat agree, although if you are using the D-RPM metric, then I assume you also believe Wiggins to be one of the worst wing defenders in the league and Rubio to be one of the best PG defenders in the league?

The reality is Thibs is building around KAT and Wig. He needs to recognize their defensive limitations and find guys that can defend the hell out of people and exhibit the mental toughness these two lack. I personally think a traditional rim protector is NOT what they need. Instead a top notch wing defender and a PF that can guard in space would be the two top priorities this offseason. Rookies need not apply.

I like to mix stats with my eye test and my eye test tells me Wiggins is a hard worker on defense, but is a bad help defender which contributes to his awful DRPM. My eye test with Towns tells me he's just not trying far too often for the primary rim protector. I've seen Towns way too often this year watching someone go up with the ball at the rim and not challenge at all. He's also a bad help defender which contributes to the low DRPM. I think Towns has a significantly higher potential to impact our team defense than Wiggins so we just need him to step up on that end more than Wiggins.

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Wiggins is gonna get his max deal, so I'm not gonna fight it, but man it's gonna suck to reward a guy who quite frankly isn't putting the work in and I fear he never will because playing half-assed has gotten him to this point.


0 rebounds for a guy who is 6'8''. Just an F at all things intangibles

I think we need to accept the fact that he is a volume scorer and not much else. Folks can hope he'll get better at other things, but until he proves it night and night out, the front office has to go into the offseason assuming otherwise.

So, if you accept the fact he's a pure scorer, you put him at SG and find a SF that defends, hustles, rebounds, chases loose balls, and hopefully can hit the open 3. Let Wiggins be DeMar DeRozan because that's where he's headed right now.

As for Thibs, he has to be disappointed in himself and his team. He brings what is considered the best defensive coaching chops in the NBA and we barely move the needle over the last two years of pathetic defense. Very depressing.

1. Wiggins was playing great defense when our run for the 8 seed began and he just ran out of gas like he has every year because he literally has played the most regular season minutes in the NBA since his rookie year.

2. Thibs can't force guys like Towns to give a shit defensively. There was a point this season where Towns was statistically the worst defensive big in the league (even worse than Okafor). When Towns decides to play defense and not be a revolving door trying to not foul our defense will significantly improve. Defense starts at the rim. Good rim protectors make everyone else better defensively and we have two of the worst rim protectors in the league in Dieng and Towns. Get guys who protect the rim and we can be an average defense which is all we need with our offense to win more than we lose.

On point #1, the whole team was playing better defense for about two or three weeks after the all star break. Otherwise, they've been crap most of the year. As for Wiggins, his minutes and fatigue isn't going to change as long as Thibs is coach and he's counted upon to be our first or second option. It is what it is. If he's our Demar DeRozan, then we need a Wolves version of DeMarre Carroll. I'm fine with that.

On point #2, I somewhat agree, although if you are using the D-RPM metric, then I assume you also believe Wiggins to be one of the worst wing defenders in the league and Rubio to be one of the best PG defenders in the league?

The reality is Thibs is building around KAT and Wig. He needs to recognize their defensive limitations and find guys that can defend the hell out of people and exhibit the mental toughness these two lack. I personally think a traditional rim protector is NOT what they need. Instead a top notch wing defender and a PF that can guard in space would be the two top priorities this offseason. Rookies need not apply.

I like to mix stats with my eye test and my eye test tells me Wiggins is a hard worker on defense, but is a bad help defender which contributes to his awful DRPM. My eye test with Towns tells me he's just not trying far too often for the primary rim protector. I've seen Towns way too often this year watching someone go up with the ball at the rim and not challenge at all. He's also a bad help defender which contributes to the low DRPM. I think Towns has a significantly higher potential to impact our team defense than Wiggins so we just need him to step up on that end more than Wiggins.

Agreed on most fronts, however, Wiggins doesn't make the extra effort more often than not. Has anyone ever seen him make a chase down block? It almost never happens. Why? because he simply gives up on plays in transition. He absolutely has the athletic gifts to make all sorts of momentum changing plays defensively, but it almost never happens. Meanwhile, I've seen gimpy old Brandon Rush make 3 or 4 chase down blocks in transition this season alone (not suggesting he's a better overall defender than Wiggins, but just that here is someone that plays a similar position doing certain things you would expect Wiggins to do on a regular basis).

I will give KAT and Wig a little benefit of the doubt in that they each carry a big offensive load. It's tough to be elite both ways, although that's what "the greats" do.

How many 21 years in the NBA have scored 20+ a game and were at least an average defender? I bet if he Wiggins stayed on with the Cavs he would be a lights out defender with how much less energy he would expend on that team

BloopOracle wrote:How many 21 years in the NBA have scored 20+ a game and were at least an average defender? I bet if he Wiggins stayed on with the Cavs he would be a lights out defender with how much less energy he would expend on that team

"at least average"...

ahem.

I guess we'll never stop parsing through what constitutes talent or promise and downplay other elements to continue the Promise of Hope.

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:Wiggins is gonna get his max deal, so I'm not gonna fight it, but man it's gonna suck to reward a guy who quite frankly isn't putting the work in and I fear he never will because playing half-assed has gotten him to this point.


0 rebounds for a guy who is 6'8''. Just an F at all things intangibles

I think we need to accept the fact that he is a volume scorer and not much else. Folks can hope he'll get better at other things, but until he proves it night and night out, the front office has to go into the offseason assuming otherwise.

So, if you accept the fact he's a pure scorer, you put him at SG and find a SF that defends, hustles, rebounds, chases loose balls, and hopefully can hit the open 3. Let Wiggins be DeMar DeRozan because that's where he's headed right now.

As for Thibs, he has to be disappointed in himself and his team. He brings what is considered the best defensive coaching chops in the NBA and we barely move the needle over the last two years of pathetic defense. Very depressing.

1. Wiggins was playing great defense when our run for the 8 seed began and he just ran out of gas like he has every year because he literally has played the most regular season minutes in the NBA since his rookie year.

2. Thibs can't force guys like Towns to give a shit defensively. There was a point this season where Towns was statistically the worst defensive big in the league (even worse than Okafor). When Towns decides to play defense and not be a revolving door trying to not foul our defense will significantly improve. Defense starts at the rim. Good rim protectors make everyone else better defensively and we have two of the worst rim protectors in the league in Dieng and Towns. Get guys who protect the rim and we can be an average defense which is all we need with our offense to win more than we lose.

On point #1, the whole team was playing better defense for about two or three weeks after the all star break. Otherwise, they've been crap most of the year. As for Wiggins, his minutes and fatigue isn't going to change as long as Thibs is coach and he's counted upon to be our first or second option. It is what it is. If he's our Demar DeRozan, then we need a Wolves version of DeMarre Carroll. I'm fine with that.

On point #2, I somewhat agree, although if you are using the D-RPM metric, then I assume you also believe Wiggins to be one of the worst wing defenders in the league and Rubio to be one of the best PG defenders in the league?

The reality is Thibs is building around KAT and Wig. He needs to recognize their defensive limitations and find guys that can defend the hell out of people and exhibit the mental toughness these two lack. I personally think a traditional rim protector is NOT what they need. Instead a top notch wing defender and a PF that can guard in space would be the two top priorities this offseason. Rookies need not apply.

I like to mix stats with my eye test and my eye test tells me Wiggins is a hard worker on defense, but is a bad help defender which contributes to his awful DRPM. My eye test with Towns tells me he's just not trying far too often for the primary rim protector. I've seen Towns way too often this year watching someone go up with the ball at the rim and not challenge at all. He's also a bad help defender which contributes to the low DRPM. I think Towns has a significantly higher potential to impact our team defense than Wiggins so we just need him to step up on that end more than Wiggins.

Agreed on most fronts, however, Wiggins doesn't make the extra effort more often than not. Has anyone ever seen him make a chase down block? It almost never happens. Why? because he simply gives up on plays in transition. He absolutely has the athletic gifts to make all sorts of momentum changing plays defensively, but it almost never happens. Meanwhile, I've seen gimpy old Brandon Rush make 3 or 4 chase down blocks in transition this season alone (not suggesting he's a better overall defender than Wiggins, but just that here is someone that plays a similar position doing certain things you would expect Wiggins to do on a regular basis).

I will give KAT and Wig a little benefit of the doubt in that they each carry a big offensive load. It's tough to be elite both ways, although that's what "the greats" do.

You're absolutely right about Wiggins in transition. He doesn't go for the spectacular blocks, and he never takes a charge. It frustrates me that he seems ultra conservative when it comes to these things. I don't think he likes contact, and I also don't think he wants to get in foul trouble. He needs to learn to be more aggressive without fouling, but I don't know how he gets there. I'd be happy if he just took a few more chances. He's kind of the anti Corey Brewer in that respect. He seems so afraid to get beat that he won't unleash his athletic gifts toward impacting the game on defense. There has to be a happy medium there.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:How many 21 years in the NBA have scored 20+ a game and were at least an average defender? I bet if he Wiggins stayed on with the Cavs he would be a lights out defender with how much less energy he would expend on that team

"at least average"...

ahem.

I guess we'll never stop parsing through what constitutes talent or promise and downplay other elements to continue the Promise of Hope.

Seriously how many are there? I don't think I am downplaying anything Abe

BloopOracle wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:How many 21 years in the NBA have scored 20+ a game and were at least an average defender? I bet if he Wiggins stayed on with the Cavs he would be a lights out defender with how much less energy he would expend on that team

"at least average"...

ahem.

I guess we'll never stop parsing through what constitutes talent or promise and downplay other elements to continue the Promise of Hope.

Seriously how many are there? I don't think I am downplaying anything Abe

I think your definition of "at least an average defender" might be argued by many around the league without a vested interest in hoping Wiggins improves as a player.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:How many 21 years in the NBA have scored 20+ a game and were at least an average defender? I bet if he Wiggins stayed on with the Cavs he would be a lights out defender with how much less energy he would expend on that team

"at least average"...

ahem.

I guess we'll never stop parsing through what constitutes talent or promise and downplay other elements to continue the Promise of Hope.

Seriously how many are there? I don't think I am downplaying anything Abe

I think your definition of "at least an average defender" might be argued by many around the league without a vested interest in hoping Wiggins improves as a player.

Can you take their place and name some? I just can't see that many 21 year old players you could lock into that description, ESPECIALLY if we narrow down to wing players