Minnesota Sports Forum

kekgeek1 wrote:I also don't get how the season is a failure if we get the 8th seed. Vegas over/under was 46.5 so we would of hit the over. We had the 2nd biggest increase in wins of any team in the NBA. According to cleaning the glass.com the wolves based on net rating should have 1.6 more wins this season (luck factor). So if luck was on our side look at that we are the 4 seed and easily could have the 3 seed. If that was case nobody would be bitching at all. We could be 12 games over .500 for a team that has not made the playoffs in 14 years. We just had our first year over .500 in the non-KG era

My other issue is how many games the Wolves lost that essentially placed them into this situation. The losses to Phoenix without Booker, they lost to Atlanta, lost to Memphis, Chicago and Brooklyn. I'm sure I'm missing a couple too.

Playing down to the poor opponents was a consistent theme all year.

Some of that has to come back on Thibs. You win a couple more of those easier opponents and you are 4th seed.

Seeing the low effort and essentially giving those games away was very frustrating, we can see now how it turned out.

longstrangetrip wrote:
To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.

Nice part is that you don't have to decide.

I think the most important consideration is that Thibs is inflexible, and maybe just not smart enough for today's NBA. Any GM in the wolves org should be cognizant of the fact this team needs to build through the draft. We just can't get players here at a competitive price in FA. Thibs has blown our salary cap to the point our team will likely get worse rather than better over the next couple of seasons.

To make matters worse, he seems allergic to change of any of his systems. Not having an offensive system was OK when you had RIcky to run things, but he traded him away for a better shooter who scores 2 more points per game, and made us weaker defensively as well.

sjm34 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.

Nice part is that you don't have to decide.

I think the most important consideration is that Thibs is inflexible, and maybe just not smart enough for today's NBA. Any GM in the wolves org should be cognizant of the fact this team needs to build through the draft. We just can't get players here at a competitive price in FA. Thibs has blown our salary cap to the point our team will likely get worse rather than better over the next couple of seasons.

To make matters worse, he seems allergic to change of any of his systems. Not having an offensive system was OK when you had RIcky to run things, but he traded him away for a better shooter who scores 2 more points per game, and made us weaker defensively as well.

The thing is I am still ok with the Crawford signing the problem is we have nobody to replace him if he doesn't have it going. We didnt have the cap space to add a quality wing player and that hurt. The thing that hurt was when we signed Gorgui, and SJM has been right on this from the beginning. If we would have waited until the offseason he Gorgui would probably been signed to around 8 mil what Jy. Green got. What would of saved us 7 mil allowing us to sign CJ Miles. Even if we didn't do the Rubio trade (what I am still a fan of) we didn't have enough money to go out and get a player like Miles. The Gorgui deal is the killer.

Also it is hard to know about the Rubio thing. Rubio was really bad without Gobert this year. He has been really good with him though. Also Rubio in general has a Def rating of 102.8 so in the 92 percentil. But in all lineups without Gobert he has a Def rating of 109.5 and that is in the 42 percentil.

Here's another reason this season is a failure. We spent considerable time in 3rd or 4th place. To end up 8th or even out of the playoffs is a collapse if nothing else. We blew too many winnable games and should not be in this position. And before you say, "but Jimmy got hurt", remember he gets hurt every year. That's part of the deal with him.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Here's another reason this season is a failure. We spent considerable time in 3rd or 4th place. To end up 8th or even out of the playoffs is a collapse if nothing else. We blew too many winnable games and should not be in this position. And before you say, "but Jimmy got hurt", remember he gets hurt every year. That's part of the deal with him.

Every team has ups and downs in their narrative for a season. Jumping from there were challenging aspects to this season to it was a failure is too big of a jump. It's just too black and white, 5 more wins and it was a success? I think Thibs just rubs a lot of people (fans included) the wrong way. I keep going back to the 16 win improvement, and can't find a way to translate that into failure. Was it pretty? Hell no. Could we have won more? Probably, but that makes me more excited than dissappinted.

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Here's another reason this season is a failure. We spent considerable time in 3rd or 4th place. To end up 8th or even out of the playoffs is a collapse if nothing else. We blew too many winnable games and should not be in this position. And before you say, "but Jimmy got hurt", remember he gets hurt every year. That's part of the deal with him.

Every team has ups and downs in their narrative for a season. Jumping from there were challenging aspects to this season to it was a failure is too big of a jump. It's just too black and white, 5 more wins and it was a success? I think Thibs just rubs a lot of people (fans included) the wrong way. I keep going back to the 16 win improvement, and can't find a way to translate that into failure. Was it pretty? Hell no. Could we have won more? Probably, but that makes me more excited than dissappinted.

There is something to be said about how much upside is left defensively....SO much room for improvement with a good foundation of Butler and Gibson.

That being said, I agree with Cool's point on Jimmy. A good number of teams ahead of us have had significant injuries to key guys that it's a tough card for anyone to play when making excuses for Thibs.

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Here's another reason this season is a failure. We spent considerable time in 3rd or 4th place. To end up 8th or even out of the playoffs is a collapse if nothing else. We blew too many winnable games and should not be in this position. And before you say, "but Jimmy got hurt", remember he gets hurt every year. That's part of the deal with him.

Every team has ups and downs in their narrative for a season. Jumping from there were challenging aspects to this season to it was a failure is too big of a jump. It's just too black and white, 5 more wins and it was a success? I think Thibs just rubs a lot of people (fans included) the wrong way. I keep going back to the 16 win improvement, and can't find a way to translate that into failure. Was it pretty? Hell no. Could we have won more? Probably, but that makes me more excited than dissappinted.

To answer your question, Yes, 5 more wins and it was a major success.

sjm34 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.

Nice part is that you don't have to decide.

I think the most important consideration is that Thibs is inflexible, and maybe just not smart enough for today's NBA. Any GM in the wolves org should be cognizant of the fact this team needs to build through the draft. We just can't get players here at a competitive price in FA. Thibs has blown our salary cap to the point our team will likely get worse rather than better over the next couple of seasons.

To make matters worse, he seems allergic to change of any of his systems. Not having an offensive system was OK when you had RIcky to run things, but he traded him away for a better shooter who scores 2 more points per game, and made us weaker defensively as well.

You mention that this team needs to build through the draft and Thibs/Layden seem to have considered that as well. They got a draft pick for Rubio and didn't give up that pick for a chance to get a solid rotation player. People are really down on Patton and there is some evidence to support that but it's not like he is a lost cause at 20 years old (turns 21 in June) who was supposed to be raw and then had a foot injury. On one hand you have Cam that really thinks Patton has a chance to be good. On the other Q is really down on him. I'm not saying I only respect these 2 poster's takes but I think they are people the last few years have had takes on various players I resonated with (Cam seems to have an eye for talent and Q cuts through the BS of "talent" to what can the guy actually do) and they are on opposite sides. What if Patton had never gotten hurt? What if he is healthy next season and shows an intruiging skillset? You are absolutely right this team needs to build from the draft and build from finding some lower cost young talent also. Thins and Layden have done that the last 2 years but with mixed results. This offseason will be interesting. People tend to forget the backup PG on this team is 21 years old.

monsterpile wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.

Nice part is that you don't have to decide.

I think the most important consideration is that Thibs is inflexible, and maybe just not smart enough for today's NBA. Any GM in the wolves org should be cognizant of the fact this team needs to build through the draft. We just can't get players here at a competitive price in FA. Thibs has blown our salary cap to the point our team will likely get worse rather than better over the next couple of seasons.

To make matters worse, he seems allergic to change of any of his systems. Not having an offensive system was OK when you had RIcky to run things, but he traded him away for a better shooter who scores 2 more points per game, and made us weaker defensively as well.

You mention that this team needs to build through the draft and Thibs/Layden seem to have considered that as well. They got a draft pick for Rubio and didn't give up that pick for a chance to get a solid rotation player. People are really down on Patton and there is some evidence to support that but it's not like he is a lost cause at 20 years old (turns 21 in June) who was supposed to be raw and then had a foot injury. On one hand you have Cam that really thinks Patton has a chance to be good. On the other Q is really down on him. I'm not saying I only respect these 2 poster's takes but I think they are people the last few years have had takes on various players I resonated with (Cam seems to have an eye for talent and Q cuts through the BS of "talent" to what can the guy actually do) and they are on opposite sides. What if Patton had never gotten hurt? What if he is healthy next season and shows an intruiging skillset? You are absolutely right this team needs to build from the draft and build from finding some lower cost young talent also. Thins and Layden have done that the last 2 years but with mixed results. This offseason will be interesting. People tend to forget the backup PG on this team is 21 years old.

It kind of defeats the purpose of building through the draft when you swap out PG's (of similar talent) and add 5 mil to the payroll. THibs has shown no ability to judge talent, even with several years of data to evaluate. G and Bazz are both below average players and he offered both 4 year deals in double digits, and did both a year early. Thank god Bazz turned his down, or this team would be even further up the creek. Whether Patton shows the skillset we want, he was a still a pick that really doesn't fit our needs.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Here's another reason this season is a failure. We spent considerable time in 3rd or 4th place. To end up 8th or even out of the playoffs is a collapse if nothing else. We blew too many winnable games and should not be in this position. And before you say, "but Jimmy got hurt", remember he gets hurt every year. That's part of the deal with him.

Every team has ups and downs in their narrative for a season. Jumping from there were challenging aspects to this season to it was a failure is too big of a jump. It's just too black and white, 5 more wins and it was a success? I think Thibs just rubs a lot of people (fans included) the wrong way. I keep going back to the 16 win improvement, and can't find a way to translate that into failure. Was it pretty? Hell no. Could we have won more? Probably, but that makes me more excited than dissappinted.

To answer your question, Yes, 5 more wins and it was a major success.

I guess I'm not so black and white. Failure and success seem too close together from that model for my taste.