Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:The 4th quarter offense last night went to shit because of Thibs. He tried to beat Jokic's poor defense into the ground with Teague/Taj PnR's and that duo just isn't a great PnR duo. You're supposed to attack weak matchups when you have an advantage, but Taj offense just isn't an advantage even against a guy like Jokic. At that point you just have to know Towns is just too good for even Milsap to guard every play. Thibs just didn't adjust. The Butler iso turnaround jumper was garbage because they waited too long to initiate and again Taj set the pick and he's no threat to get a drop off pass for the win. The Crawford play was just garbage with 1 second left. A little adjustment and we win the game in regulation easily. We still won, but you just have to be better than that as a coach. He got too locked into to attacking their weakness to realize he didn't have the pieces on the floor who could execute that effectively.

Towns was being used as a floor spacer. That makes some sense but plenty of people aren't going to like using someone that good for that purpose. Ultimately Towns needs to get the ball and know how to beat Millsap. What he probably should have done is just shot long 2's over him instead of tried to back him down.

Also credit to Murray for being pretty solid defeively against Teague making things more difficult than expected for him and Taj.

One of the positives/negatives of this team offensively is it has a bunch of guys that can score and do a lot of different things all over the floor. Towns Butler Teague Wiggins Belly Crawford and even Tyus to some extent are a threat to do something positive from about any place on the floor. Taj isn't a 3 point threat but can score from various spots within 17 feet or so. Meanwhile you only have a couple of those guys that are really spot up 3 point threats and they are bigs in Towns and Belly. So anyway you have guys that can score or make plays at some level but all have some flaws in one way or another. These various somewhat diverse group is just talented enough as scorers to get themselves and the team in trouble. When do they attack? When do they differ? When should they be running sets and pick and roll etc? Plus most of these guys don't seem to have much interest in running up and down the floor so pace isn't a positive factor in getting easy buckets for the most part.

So at some point if these guys can get on the same page plus adding some more shooting...oh boy they could really be tough to stop and they are pretty good already...at least statistically. I think we would all agree the problem is later in the game. There is some potential for more chemistry between the players and also better coaching as well.

Our offense could be miles better even though we score a lot. As you mention, we have a lot of guys who can do a lot of things. That means you need to organize and attack based on what the defense is giving you and if that doesn't work you have to try something else. Not just last night, but down the stretch teams are doing what they can to force the ball to Taj and we've just let them run that strategy. We keep running PnR's with him sometimes multiple times in one possession and that's feeding right into what the other team wants. If Teague/Jimmy/Wiggins/Taj/Towns are on the floor, you want Taj with the ball in his hands if you are defending us and we've just played too much into that lately. At some point you have to realize there are about 4 guys in this league that can guard Towns so against everyone else you have to just get him involved in high PnR's and not worry about spacing or going after the weaker defender on Taj. Stick Taj on the baseline and he can make a cut to the basket on every drive for an easy layup if they are going to use his man as the help defender. That's better than feeding him the ball 15ft from the basket out of the PnR and having him look around for help. It's really just small adjustments that need to be made in the game that don't happen which is the frustrating part. For a team with as much talent as we have, we settle into what the defense actual wants to give us too often.

Well said Kahns.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BoooooYAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!! MAN, that feels good!!!

Been following this team since 2000, and posting on the old ESPN board since shortly after that, and man, the last 13 years have been so tough to deal with. We may get swept, but this was definitely a step in the right direction.

Thanks as always for the game report Lip (and the shout out). We've been waiting to read that one for a long damn time. Playoffs, here we come! (cue the music) Duh-duh DUH-duh duh duh, duh duh!

This notion that Jimmy has to have the ball for every last minute possession drives me nuts. It really has prevented us from winning some games. I'm surprised KAT and Wig put up with it to be honest.

khans2k5 wrote:The 4th quarter offense last night went to shit because of Thibs. He tried to beat Jokic's poor defense into the ground with Teague/Taj PnR's and that duo just isn't a great PnR duo. You're supposed to attack weak matchups when you have an advantage, but Taj offense just isn't an advantage even against a guy like Jokic. At that point you just have to know Towns is just too good for even Milsap to guard every play. Thibs just didn't adjust. The Butler iso turnaround jumper was garbage because they waited too long to initiate and again Taj set the pick and he's no threat to get a drop off pass for the win. The Crawford play was just garbage with 1 second left. A little adjustment and we win the game in regulation easily. We still won, but you just have to be better than that as a coach. He got too locked into to attacking their weakness to realize he didn't have the pieces on the floor who could execute that effectively.

A terrific post, Kahns! You nailed it. Repeatedly failing to run the offense through Towns is near to the top of the list of reasons I'd love to replace Thibodeau. I have no doubt Thibs' failure to feature Towns more in the offense and get him more shots contributed to a number of our losses this season. The loss at ATLANTA is one example. Towns had only 8 shots, hitting 6 of them. Meanwhile, Teague went 1-12. That's ridiculous and, I'm sorry, that's on the head coach. Or how about the loss at ORLANDO? Towns had 13 shots, hitting 6 of them, while Teague went 6-17. In the loss at CHICAGO, Towns took 8 shots, the same number as Crawford while Jimmy Butler took 26 shots. In the loss at home to the SUNS, Towns was 7-17, hitting 4 of his 7 threes and going10-12 from the line. Meanwhile Butler was 5-18 and Wiggins 5-16, the two combined hitting 1 of 9 threes. Towns had only 6 shots in the road loss to MEMPHIS back in November. Meanwhile, Wiggins went 6-17 that games while Crawford shot 2-10.

It is beyond ridiculous that Towns would take significantly fewer shots than Crawford or Teague. Getting only 8 shots in Thibs' offense against the Hawks while Teague took 12 shots and made only 1 that game is inexcusable. Get KAT at least 15 shots in each of those 5 games and I suspect the Wolves would have had at least 2 more wins. And these are the only five games I've looked at tonight. I'm sure there were other close games the Wolves would have won by getting KAT more shots in the offense.

Just re-watched the game....You can be a lot more observant when not so damn nervous and emotional!

- Jokic was VERY well guarded throughout the entire game, not just the 4th quarter and OT where Taj locked him down. He was making some ridiculously well contested and difficult shots in the 3rd quarter and even earlier in the game. The dude is a major talent...not sure what else KAT or Gibson could have done on some of those crazy makes.

- That being said, Taj absolutely deserves the game ball. That game alone earned him that contract that myself and others thought we overpaid on. Wrong!

- Teague's pump fake 3's and drives into the paint for floaters was driving J-Pete nuts. Totally messes up our floor balance when he misses those shots. If Teague played for Houston, they would insist he takes the 3 every single time unless covered like a blanket (in which case he really can blow by his guy). He needs to be told to shoot that damn 3 and we don't care if you miss 8 in a row....keep taking them.

- Speaking of Teague.....Thibs the GM has too many guys in that starting lineup that want to get into the painted area. Nothing new here, but you saw how mucked up things get in there. Thank God Wiggins hit those big 3's and was able to play the part of floor spacer. Why oh why can't he do that more consistently!?

- Bjelly got a few steals, but otherwise was terrible on both ends.

- I thought the Rose signing was terrible, but he does bring energy...I'll give him that.

- Thibs really gets obsessed with the mismatch. The 4th quarter was all about trying to get Jokic and Murray to guard the pick and roll and get them in a switch OR we just did Jimmy isolation. If you are going to run a two man game, why on earth wouldn't you do Butler and KAT, by far your two best offensive players on the floor, matchups be damned! Oh well.....we won!

CoolBreeze44 wrote:This notion that Jimmy has to have the ball for every last minute possession drives me nuts. It really has prevented us from winning some games. I'm surprised KAT and Wig put up with it to be honest.

Agreed, although I'm fine with Wiggins not touching it. KAT absolutely needs more touches and they could at least try running a set where the ball swings around a bit before the main play or matchup is executed.

Butler is really good. I mean really, really good. But he's not Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Harden, Irving, or prime D-Wade. He is a tier below those guys in terms of iso-offense. Surely he needs to touch the ball a lot in the 4th, but it doesn't always have to be clear outs.

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:This notion that Jimmy has to have the ball for every last minute possession drives me nuts. It really has prevented us from winning some games. I'm surprised KAT and Wig put up with it to be honest.

Agreed, although I'm fine with Wiggins not touching it. KAT absolutely needs more touches and they could at least try running a set where the ball swings around a bit before the main play or matchup is executed.

Butler is really good. I mean really, really good. But he's not Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Harden, Irving, or prime D-Wade. He is a tier below those guys in terms of iso-offense. Surely he needs to touch the ball a lot in the 4th, but it doesn't always have to be clear outs.

All I know Q is I've seen Wig win games for us with big shots at the buzzer. With all the opportunities he's gotten how many times has Butler done it? I'm not saying we take the ball out of Butler's hands completely, but this notion that he's the only guy we can trust in those situations is ridiculous. Run some offense (what little Thibs normally runs) and give yourself some options.

I've heard a lot of basketball chatter over the last couple of days since the win. A couple of things have been repeated...

- I know this forum made claims about favorable officiating toward Denver... but that's not necessarily the consensus. Specifically, Gibson's aggressive defense vs. Jokic late. Personally, I thought it was part of the "let them play" mantra the officials had all game and that Gibson did a wonderful job. Funny how things are viewed when disparate preferred outcomes are at stake...

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/12/nikola-jokic-nuggets-fouled-by-taj-gibson/

- Denver's execution at the end was as bad (nearly?) as bad as Minnesota's. While I agree that Jokic shooting from 21 feet (the Gibson steal play) isn't much better than Butler's turnaround 20-footer on the previous possession... I thought they had some good looks and just missed them, e.g., Jokic's missed left-handed layup and Barton's 8-foot floater in the lane.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I've heard a lot of basketball chatter over the last couple of days since the win. A couple of things have been repeated...

- I know this forum made claims about favorable officiating toward Denver... but that's not necessarily the consensus. Specifically, Gibson's aggressive defense vs. Jokic late. Personally, I thought it was part of the "let them play" mantra the officials had all game and that Gibson did a wonderful job. Funny how things are viewed when disparate preferred outcomes are at stake...

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/12/nikola-jokic-nuggets-fouled-by-taj-gibson/

- Denver's execution at the end was as bad (nearly?) as bad as Minnesota's. While I agree that Jokic shooting from 21 feet (the Gibson steal play) isn't much better than Butler's turnaround 20-footer on the previous possession... I thought they had some good looks and just missed them, e.g., Jokic's missed left-handed layup and Barton's 8-foot floater in the lane.

I just don't buy people from Denver bitching about calls. Did they just happen to not see the hook around Gibson on his drive the ended up being the shot clock violation? Or how about every time he puts someone in the first row on a rebound and doesn't get called for it? Jokic plays far too physical to then bitch when people dish it back to him. Also Taj got his hand on the final play, but the hand is part of the ball in that scenario. They also had the most egrigious moving screen I think I've ever seen when either Jokic or Milsap literally walked our defender (think it was Teague) to the 3pt line from the elbow. Boxing someone out to the 3pt line in the middle of a play is a foul. At the end of the day you don't get to play physical and then complain when you get played physical.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I've heard a lot of basketball chatter over the last couple of days since the win. A couple of things have been repeated...

- I know this forum made claims about favorable officiating toward Denver... but that's not necessarily the consensus. Specifically, Gibson's aggressive defense vs. Jokic late. Personally, I thought it was part of the "let them play" mantra the officials had all game and that Gibson did a wonderful job. Funny how things are viewed when disparate preferred outcomes are at stake...

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/12/nikola-jokic-nuggets-fouled-by-taj-gibson/

- Denver's execution at the end was as bad (nearly?) as bad as Minnesota's. While I agree that Jokic shooting from 21 feet (the Gibson steal play) isn't much better than Butler's turnaround 20-footer on the previous possession... I thought they had some good looks and just missed them, e.g., Jokic's missed left-handed layup and Barton's 8-foot floater in the lane.

The Dunc'd on guys were not a fan of the way this game was officiated. They felt it was too I consistent. They specifically said Towns was getting mauled in the game. Jokic clearly fouled Towns a couple plays when I started watching. It's a damn hard game to officiate and at least when I started watching it was playoff basketball physically and the officials let them play at least. I did get a kick out of Thibs response to a question after the game about "playoff physicality" and he said something like "playoffs now or from...?" He was making a point but also seemed like he was making a bit of a funny.