Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:Hicks -- You make a solid argument, but we just disagree on this. As for JJ's salary, it is a very reasonable one and not a contract we should be looking to shed. He has only one year left after this one and his salary next season is only $4.3 million. The bad contracts on this team are Budinger's, Brewer's and Martin's.

Barea's contract is reasonable? Yeesh. 4.5M this year and next is a huge overpay for what he's brought to the table. I'll take Martin and Corey's contract over his; at least they're producing. Bench needs a facilitator and JJ is not that.

I like picking up Miller as a facilitator, but who is he going to facilitate to? Portland has accomplished in FA and the draft what we couldn't, loading up on reliable 3 point shooters. The Budinger situation is really potentially bad. There could really be lingering physical issues when make him obsolete. I just can't see how that contract is justified in any way right now. I recently advocated for Bud in another thread but after seeing him in person I am pretty well convinced that he is not right physically, and with the nature of his injuries may never be right. This is the kind of potential mistake that our franchise just can't afford right now.

Kevin Martin at 6.5 mil is a bad contract?!? Unless you are making the argument that all NBA players are paid ridiculous amounts of money, there is no way you can say Martin is overpaid for the production he gives us on a non-rookie scale contract. The ONLY caveat you could possibly make is the injury risk, but that has not come into play (knock on wood!).

Brewer at 4.5 mil? Maybe a bit overpaid for the production you would expect from him, but considering how much we are depending on him given Bud's injury and D-Will's failure, I cannot complain much.

Bud is certainly overpaid at this point. If his career path continued as it looked like it would before the injury early last season, then 5 mil isn't a stretch. It may still turn out fine, but that is not the case at this point. I guess I'm glad he's at least back on the court working to pick up the pieces...

Barea and Cunningham are really two of the biggest disappoints thus far. They are having very sub-par years compared to last year (and their careers). The bench has sucked this year, and many of our losses can be laid at their feet for their lack of production. I don't know how big a difference Andre Miller would make, but I wouldn't mind seeing something different on our bench.

60WinTim wrote:Kevin Martin at 6.5 mil is a bad contract?!? Unless you are making the argument that all NBA players are paid ridiculous amounts of money, there is no way you can say Martin is overpaid for the production he gives us on a non-rookie scale contract. The ONLY caveat you could possibly make is the injury risk, but that has not come into play (knock on wood!).

Brewer at 4.5 mil? Maybe a bit overpaid for the production you would expect from him, but considering how much we are depending on him given Bud's injury and D-Will's failure, I cannot complain much.

Bud is certainly overpaid at this point. If his career path continued as it looked like it would before the injury early last season, then 5 mil isn't a stretch. It may still turn out fine, but that is not the case at this point. I guess I'm glad he's at least back on the court working to pick up the pieces...

Barea and Cunningham are really two of the biggest disappoints thus far. They are having very sub-par years compared to last year (and their careers). The bench has sucked this year, and many of our losses can be laid at their feet for their lack of production. I don't know how big a difference Andre Miller would make, but I wouldn't mind seeing something different on our bench.

Tim, I don't know many who would claim Martin is overpaid THIS season. The problem is in 2 years. Or, gulp... 3 years.

Maybe that's what they mean?

I'm very much in agreement with the last two posts by doper and tim.

Miller as a facilitator? Doper's right...facilitate to whom? The guys he would be teamed up with most frequently would be Turiaf, Bud, Dante and Shved. Turiaf has never been an offensive player (although Love says Ronny is pretty offensive if you're next to him :) ), Bud is currently shooting under 30% on the season, Dante only has his 12-15 footer (and JJ actually excels at finding him for that), and Shved has proven to be more of a PG than a shooter. Our second unit needs a scorer, not a facilitator.

I'm not as concerned as doper with Bud long term. I'm guessing he is astonished at seeing in person how immobile Bud is right now, but I'm going to cut Bud some slack. It's difficult for a guy who relies on athleticism and jumpshooting to come back quickly from knee surgery, but I think he will be fine next year. I can't support Adelman's decision to keep playing him through his struggles though...it's really hurting us right now.

I'm also a big fan of Martin at $6.5 million...provided he is giving the same effort we have seen the past week. When Martin is healthy and putting out his best effort, he's almost a lock for 20 points. He's an important part of one of the best starting fives in the league, and as such, worth every penny of that $6.5 million. It's odd to say, but $6.5 million isn't very much these days in the NBA, if you look at the guys who are making about that much: Korver, Turner, Peterson, Amir Johnson, Landry, Redick, Bass, Frye and Glen Davis. I think I take Martin over anyone in that motley crew!

As for Barea, he has always been the type of guy to win or lose a game for his team any given night.

Look no further than the series that made him millions. In the NBA Finals... he was the worse player on the court for the first 4 games. He was dreadful.

8 - 32 fg (25%). The Mavs lost Game 3 by 2 points as Barea went 2 - 8 fg with 4 TOs and 1 assist. Then, he went 13 - 23 fg over the final two games, and so many people forgot about him being completely overwhelmed for the majority of the series.

And that's fine. That kind of guy can win you a game here or there. But, it's tough when he's in vital position EVERY night and the team is dependent on him playing well... or even consistently... to win.

There are more bad games than good games at this point. And there seems to be an issue between him and the team's star. So, he's VERY expendable.


[Note: Miller would be coming in possibly at an all-time low value... which is a good thing. The guy has been to the playoffs for 6 straight seasons, and even averaged 14 ppg off the bench last season in the playoffs. He can still ball... old man style or not. Do you feel better late in games with Miller or Barea running the show? Heck, Miller vs. Rubio?]

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As for Barea, he has always been the type of guy to win or lose a game for his team any given night.

Look no further than the series that made him millions. In the NBA Finals... he was the worse player on the court for the first 4 games. He was dreadful.

8 - 32 fg (25%). The Mavs lost Game 3 by 2 points as Barea went 2 - 8 fg with 4 TOs and 1 assist. Then, he went 13 - 23 fg over the final two games, and so many people forgot about him being completely overwhelmed for the majority of the series.

And that's fine. That kind of guy can win you a game here or there. But, it's tough when he's in vital position EVERY night and the team is dependent on him playing well... or even consistently... to win.

There are more bad games than good games at this point. And there seems to be an issue between him and the team's star. So, he's VERY expendable.


[Note: Miller would be coming in possibly at an all-time low value... which is a good thing. The guy has been to the playoffs for 6 straight seasons, and even averaged 14 ppg off the bench last season in the playoffs. He can still ball... old man style or not. Do you feel better late in games with Miller or Barea running the show? Heck, Miller vs. Rubio?]

I'll take Miller over JJ, abe, but I don't see that as the question. An over the hill facilitator is not going to help this club much. I would prefer to see Shved at PG, and the focus turned to finding a scorer to pair with him. While I agree that an immediate substitution of Miller for JJ makes us marginally better, I'm not in favor of expending whatever assets we have left to only improve a little. Free Shved, trade JJ, and find a scorer in free agency.
I heard there's someone out there who recently set the all-time freshman scoring record in the Pac 12...maybe we should try to find him :idea: .

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

60WinTim wrote:Kevin Martin at 6.5 mil is a bad contract?!? Unless you are making the argument that all NBA players are paid ridiculous amounts of money, there is no way you can say Martin is overpaid for the production he gives us on a non-rookie scale contract. The ONLY caveat you could possibly make is the injury risk, but that has not come into play (knock on wood!).

Brewer at 4.5 mil? Maybe a bit overpaid for the production you would expect from him, but considering how much we are depending on him given Bud's injury and D-Will's failure, I cannot complain much.

Bud is certainly overpaid at this point. If his career path continued as it looked like it would before the injury early last season, then 5 mil isn't a stretch. It may still turn out fine, but that is not the case at this point. I guess I'm glad he's at least back on the court working to pick up the pieces...

Barea and Cunningham are really two of the biggest disappoints thus far. They are having very sub-par years compared to last year (and their careers). The bench has sucked this year, and many of our losses can be laid at their feet for their lack of production. I don't know how big a difference Andre Miller would make, but I wouldn't mind seeing something different on our bench.

Tim, I don't know many who would claim Martin is overpaid THIS season. The problem is in 2 years. Or, gulp... 3 years.

Maybe that's what they mean?

I am pretty sure that is more to the point Abe.

Tim, other teams aren't going to care about Bud's injury or Dwill's failure when they decide whether Brewer is overpaid or not. I understand your point, but it really has no weight in contract value.

Even at Bud's previous level, I think he was significantly overpaid. He was never a good defender (if even mediocre) and other than 3pt %, he has minimal offensive skills.

Doper is right on when he mentions Portland. They picked up Mo Williams, Watson and Wright on the cheap, and Mo has been a good spark plug off the bench. Bud is making close to what the three of them combined make. Any of those guys could have made a difference compared to what we have, and none have ridiculous contracts of three or four years.

I think the mistake is thinking it is an either or with Miller and JJ. I think Adelman would play them together so JJ could play more SG.

LST you are right about me being shocked. I knew he was going to be a step slow but he was laboring to do everything.

I am also a big fan of Martin and his contract at this point. He is a more than capable 2 even at his age. The best way to retain his value though is to have people behind him who can take some pressure off. We need at least one more dead eye shooter to have any hope at winning games consistently. I know it is a pipe dream but I would love to see us get Miller and move Shabazz (but more likely MBAM or Bud) to the starting 3 and corey to the back up 2 spot. I think Miller and Corey heading the second unit could play a chaotic up and down style with a lot of transition which could provide some runs for the second unit. Plus they already showed last year that they work well together in this role. We would still need another shooter in that situation but I really think that the disruptive force that Corey can be is better suited to the second unit, with him getting some more limited time with the first unit (like the first 5 minutes of each half and further usage in the 4th if we need energy).

The other potential benefit of Miller is end of game situations. We know how much Adelman loves multiple ball handling guards. I feel 100 times more confident with Miller holding the ball over Barea in the final 5 minutes of a game.