Rotation once our walking wounded return

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Long, Good job outlining the logic behind sending Zach to the D-League. You've done a better job than me.

As for Martin returning, it should be very interesting to see how Flip integrates him back into the rotation. I think he will come off the bench for a couple of games before being re-inserted into the starting lineup, with Wiggins also starting. That means Shabazz will return to the bench, with Daniels backing up Martin (assuming his shot keeps falling).

[mjs34]

I don't think you do anything to disrupt our two bright spots in Wiggins and Bazz. Obviously Ricky starts, but short of that change (since we now know that Young is the golden boy) I don't see much else changing in the starting lineup. I think a bonus of having Martin come off the bench would be to see how he handles that going forward. We may need to move him if he can't accept that. I am assuming that Pek will start as well because Flip has to do something to change our front court, and apparently in his eyes, Gorgi is the issue.

i disagree on sending Zach down though. He has played hard, is improving game by game, and there just isn't a significant difference between him and Mo. Mo has been below average at best offensively, and I think Zach is already a better defender, and actually hustles back on D.

Q, who are the "vets that know what they are doing out there" other than Ricky?

[Carlos Danger]

I don't know if there is a better candidate for the D League in the entire NBA than Zach LaVine...for the following reasons:

1) His numbers show that he is just not ready at 19 for the NBA. Dead last among league PG's in VA and EWA.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/VORP/page/2

2) The guy was never given a chance to play much in college, so to throw him into the NBA basically right out of high school is unfair. His terrible stats are to be expected, and not an indication of his potential. Give him a chance to play 35 minutes a night in a league that better suits his current level of development. Hopefully he will return to the NBA at 20 with a more developed game and more confidence.

3) Once Rubio and Martin come back, and given the need to see if Daniels can supply the 3-point shooting we need, there simply isn't room for him in the rotation.

As soon as we are healthy, Zach needs to head for the D League as soon as possible, and he should take GR3 with him so we can see what we have there.

His numbers are terrible as a PG. But I never thought of LaVine as a PG. He was forced into that role due to injuries. I want to see him play SG. This year is all about rebuilding and learning about what we have in the young guys. There is no better way to do that than keep guys together where they can get instruction, practice and playing time with their own coaches and teammates. This idea that anyone we send out to the D-League is going to come back a better player doesn't make any sense to me. The only thing the D-League has to offer is playing time against lesser competition. But when you are 5 and 26, there is no reason to not make playing time for guys you think will be part of the future.

LaVine got good experience with the offense playing PG. He's farther along now than he would have been if he had been in the D-League all year because he's learning our offense and defense. His next step is to play off the ball with Rubio/Williams running the point.

[Phenom]

The idea is that Zach has demonstrated that he is coachable and that Ricky rewards cutters. That is a perfect formula for teaching success. Time to develop a young guy for once when the ingredients are available.

How are we not developing young guys? My God, the vast majority of our rotation are young guys. Frankly, I think it's too much of a good thing. I'm not sure how much can be learned on their way to losing a franchise record number of games. I like the approach of playing young guys that are actually ready for minutes (e.g. Wiggins, Dieng, Shabazz) mixed in with veterans that know what they are doing out there. I honestly don't believe LaVine is ready for regular NBA minutes. He's only playing out of necessity due to Rubio's injury.

I just fail to see why the ONLY way someone can develop is to force-feed them minutes, when we have countless of examples of guys that developed outside of this approach.

For years we have yearned for young players to be developed instead of turning into busts or contributors for other teams. For years we have wished to be Oklahoma City who kept rising with the development of young players. Now that we have a couple that are trending up, we should hold the other ones back? If Zach shows he can handle some PT, I say give it to him. Who said anything about forcing minutes on them? Give Zach some rope with Ricky and teach him to be the player we need. Don't just assume he can't do it yet. He has done so much of what Flip has asked of him so far. Let's let him keep learning. He has earned the chance.

[mjs34]

I don't know if there is a better candidate for the D League in the entire NBA than Zach LaVine...for the following reasons:

1) His numbers show that he is just not ready at 19 for the NBA. Dead last among league PG's in VA and EWA.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/VORP/page/2

2) The guy was never given a chance to play much in college, so to throw him into the NBA basically right out of high school is unfair. His terrible stats are to be expected, and not an indication of his potential. Give him a chance to play 35 minutes a night in a league that better suits his current level of development. Hopefully he will return to the NBA at 20 with a more developed game and more confidence.

3) Once Rubio and Martin come back, and given the need to see if Daniels can supply the 3-point shooting we need, there simply isn't room for him in the rotation.

As soon as we are healthy, Zach needs to head for the D League as soon as possible, and he should take GR3 with him so we can see what we have there.

His numbers are terrible as a PG. But I never thought of LaVine as a PG. He was forced into that role due to injuries. I want to see him play SG. This year is all about rebuilding and learning about what we have in the young guys. There is no better way to do that than keep guys together where they can get instruction, practice and playing time with their own coaches and teammates. This idea that anyone we send out to the D-League is going to come back a better player doesn't make any sense to me. The only thing the D-League has to offer is playing time against lesser competition. But when you are 5 and 26, there is no reason to not make playing time for guys you think will be part of the future.

LaVine got good experience with the offense playing PG. He's farther along now than he would have been if he had been in the D-League all year because he's learning our offense and defense. His next step is to play off the ball with Rubio/Williams running the point.

Carlos, you just convinced me that we should send him down to the D league. Maybe he will get some good coaching, and what is this offense and defense you are talking about. WHat's to learn??

[Carlos Danger]

Carlos, you just convinced me that we should send him down to the D league. Maybe he will get some good coaching, and what is this offense and defense you are talking about. WHat's to learn??

Like it or not, this is the system Flip has installed. If you are a young player - don't you think it would be better to practice/play in your own team's system and receive instruction from your own coaches? How about practicing and playing against NBA players vs. guys who are not nearly as good? What's going to happen in the D-League to make him better in the NBA? I don't get it.

[mjs34]

Carlos, you just convinced me that we should send him down to the D league. Maybe he will get some good coaching, and what is this offense and defense you are talking about. WHat's to learn??

Like it or not, this is the system Flip has installed. If you are a young player - don't you think it would be better to practice/play in your own team's system and receive instruction from your own coaches? How about practicing and playing against NBA players vs. guys who are not nearly as good? What's going to happen in the D-League to make him better in the NBA? I don't get it.

He's practicing against our players!

I am pretty sure everyone had Flip's system figured out in about ten minutes. I know the other team does.

[Carlos Danger]

He's practicing against our players! .

So...you're saying it would be better for his long term development to be practicing against guys like Brady Heslip than Ricky Rubio, Mo Williams and Kevin Martin? And you don't see a value in him getting to play games against NBA talent vs. D-League guys?

[SameOldNudityDrew]

First, let's figure out what we agree on. I think we all agree that LaVine has potential, possibly high potential. I suspect we would also agree that statistically, he has not been that great as a PG even though it's not really his fault because he was thrust into a tough situation. It seems like many agree his future is probably brighter playing off the ball than as a PG, or at the very least as a combo guard.

So if those are the things we "roughly" agree on, the question is how best to help him get to that point given our current situation? My guess is that most of us would agree that ideally, for LaVine himself to develop, he should get 1) many minutes, 2) at the 2 guard spot, 3) against the best possible competition. You could argue criteria 2 and 3 are interchangeable, so let's call them 2A and 2B, but 1 is definitely the most important because if you don't get many minutes, it doesn't really matter what position you are playing or against what level of competition. So what are the ways to meet these criteria for Zach's development?

A) Play him at the 2 for the Wolves
In a perfect world, the best thing to do would be to start him at the 2 spot for us and play him lots of minutes. And one or two of you have suggested playing him a bunch at the 2 when Ricky comes back. The problem is, we've got Martin (after a few more weeks anyway) and Bazz to consider, and less so Daniels at the 2, so the minutes wouldn't be there, which is the most important thing. One solution would be to trade Martin. I would not support that until I knew that I could roll with Bazz and LaVine and maybe Daniels getting every minute there next year on a hopefully competitive team. Frankly, I don't think we know nearly enough about that yet. Bazz looks promising, but we've only really got two months this year to go on. LaVine hasn't played there this year at all basically. And Daniels is basically unknown. So unless Martin gets traded, which I wouldn't advocate, there just aren't minutes there for him, and that's the first criterion.

B) Use him as Ricky's Backup
Another solution would be to keep playing him at the 1, as Ricky's backup when he gets back. He's already been playing the 1, and this would ensure he got to keep playing against NBA talent, which might be a little easier if we've got Martin and Pek back to help him out. Some might object because it would mean basically no minutes for Mo, who has not been great but the offense has been a little better with Mo than LaVine. Personally, I wouldn't have a big problem giving LaVine's minutes to Mo. The year is shot anyway, and isn't Mo on a 1 year deal? The problem is, unless you are limiting Ricky's minutes, there wouldn't be THAT many minutes here either, and worse, it's still at a position that doesn't really match his talents. The kid needs to be unleashed as a scorer, and this wouldn't let him do that. So I think this is also not the best solution. It keeps top talent (criterion 2B), but limits his minutes (criterion 1) and puts him in the wrong position to develop and succeed (criterion 2A).

C) Combo of A) and B)
One solution, maybe the most logical one, would be to use Zach at both the 1 and the 2 to try to get him as many minutes as possible, even as Ricky and Martin (la vida LOCA!) come back and take up a lot of minutes there. Limit Ricky and Martin's minutes and drastically limit or even eliminate Mo's minutes and Daniels' minutes at both positions and you could conceivably cobble together 16-18 minutes at the point and 6-8 minutes or so at the 2. That would make sure he had decent, but not great, minutes against top competition, though because Martin AND Bazz both need minutes at the 2 (unless you want to start eating into more of Wiggins' minutes for Bazz), there just wouldn't be as much for him there. So this would be ok, but not great, on criterion 1, meet criterion 2B, but mostly fall short on criterion 2A (positionality).

D) D League
The last possibility here, which I've already advocated, is to send him to the D League and have him play a bunch at the 2 spot, his historical position and the one that really best suits his talents as an instinctive scorer. This would definitely get him more minutes than any of the other options, criterion 1, and it would also make sure he got minutes at the 2, meeting criterion 2A. But the level of competition would not be as high, so it wouldn't be quite as strong on criterion 2B. Frankly though, I don't think that criterion's quite as important as the others at Zach's age and level of development. If we send him down there and he consistently puts up 25 a game on 50% shooting, then maybe I'd bring him back quick and go for plan C). That would show he'd mastered the challenge and was ready for something harder. Frankly, I hope that would happen! But I don't think he's proven that he needs to play against NBA players to develop. I'm actually a teacher, and sometimes giving students, even those with tons of potential, the hardest assignments first actually slows down their development. It's better to scale students up to make sure they have really mastered each step before moving on to the next one. It's not quite the same, but I wouldn't say that Zach mastered the college game last year and NEEDS to move on to NBA competition. Tons of guys played against non-NBA competition after age 19 and still got better. Bazz last year is an example right under our noses. You could argue Rubio as well. I don't think there's any reason to expect a significant drop off in Zach's development if he played against D Leaguers for a few months, and I think the benefits of playing him MANY more minutes at his ideal position with a green light to be the man would far outweigh the drawbacks in talent drop-off. In fact, from what I can tell of D League players, those guys are pretty darn good players and they're all hungry to get to the NBA, so it might actually be a good scenario for showing Zach the importance of competing hard and staying hungry as a player (although I think we should give him confidence that we fully expect him to be on the Wolves roster going into next year or even later this season if he really meets some goals for scoring and efficiency).

Based on what I know, I'd definitely vote for D. Not because I don't think LaVine is that good. But because I think he really could be GREAT, and the best thing to bring that out of him would be to play a ton of minutes at the right position, and yes, against some hungry, still pretty talented competition, even if he might not be squaring up against NBA 2s just yet.

[bleedspeed]

I little bit I have watched I think he has been playing better then Mo Williams at PG. I would prefer Lavine gets that back PG minutes behind Rubio and a dozen minutes on the court with him. It just makes sense, but with Martin coming back we don't have the minutes at SG for everyone. It will be interesting how Flip handles this.