When does Flip start getting ripped?

[thedoper]

No proper blame can ever be assessed to this franchise without looking at the Mankato moron. Flip has done well to capitalize on opportunity and try to make something out of a bad situation, but this team will never be remedied with Taylor as an owner. We have the worst type of sports problem right now because our problem is with ownership. I hope to god KG can buy this team, at least we know he wouldn't be cheap. The real reason we are in as big of a mess as we are right now (and I agree we should not be surprised or panicked) is that Taylor wanted a little extra dough and agreed to a home game in Mexico City, and we start the season with a 6 game 2 week road trip with record setting miles of travel. This team needs as much practice as possible and some confidence established through some home wins. Taylor doesn't give a crap about anything other than saving money at this point. Yes he paid the luxury tax at at one point but that was because the economics suited him to do so with a competitive team. And then he immediately complained about it and stated what a mistake that was when management didn't know how to handle high paid egos. We will never have the balls to compete in this league with that idiot up top.

Doper, am not sure of your logic here. Taylor is worth 30 times what KG is, and KG doesn't have even close to enough money to be a majority owner. KG called a lot of the shots when he was with wolves involving personnel, and I think we all no what that got us. I would be more than happy if KG is never involved in a major ownership role.

Taylor will always want the wolves in Minny, and has never been cheap when it came to salaries. Can anyone name one instance when Taylor said it was too much money to sign someone. Remember that Love did get the max salary, just not max years.

I don't see how one game in Mexico city is responsible for a 2-7 record. The wolves could easily have come home for a couple days between Saturday and Wednesday games.

Flip has not done a good job when it comes to filling out the roster. He signed Bud, and Pek to new deals with both having major injury concerns. He signed Hummel at the very least too early in the off season, and with the intent to use him at PF. Hummel is way too small with no athleticism to even be considered for that spot. Turiaf apparently had his hip issue during training camp. Rather than buying out JJ, they might have though about dumping Hummel and/or Turiaf, or buying out Bud instead of JJ. There were many different ways to go with this roster, and it seems as if Flip has chosen poorly in each instance.

Maybe some of his decisions like Young had something to do with convincing Ricky to re-sign here, and so he couldn't go full rebuild mode. Either way, this team has options in front of it, and it is time for Flip to make some hard decisions.

My logic isn't about net worth. Every decision Taylor has made since trading away KG has been about saving money. This Mexico thing was yet another decision about saving a few bucks and nothing more. That is my point. We would likely be 2-7 either way but as a franchise we are philosophically crippled. We should be considering team building, establishing leadership. Instead we are just trying to perpetually stop the bleeding. Taylor has been habitually angling this franchise for a sale through being economically frugal and you can't do that and field a competitive team at the same time.

[mjs34]

No proper blame can ever be assessed to this franchise without looking at the Mankato moron. Flip has done well to capitalize on opportunity and try to make something out of a bad situation, but this team will never be remedied with Taylor as an owner. We have the worst type of sports problem right now because our problem is with ownership. I hope to god KG can buy this team, at least we know he wouldn't be cheap. The real reason we are in as big of a mess as we are right now (and I agree we should not be surprised or panicked) is that Taylor wanted a little extra dough and agreed to a home game in Mexico City, and we start the season with a 6 game 2 week road trip with record setting miles of travel. This team needs as much practice as possible and some confidence established through some home wins. Taylor doesn't give a crap about anything other than saving money at this point. Yes he paid the luxury tax at at one point but that was because the economics suited him to do so with a competitive team. And then he immediately complained about it and stated what a mistake that was when management didn't know how to handle high paid egos. We will never have the balls to compete in this league with that idiot up top.

Doper, am not sure of your logic here. Taylor is worth 30 times what KG is, and KG doesn't have even close to enough money to be a majority owner. KG called a lot of the shots when he was with wolves involving personnel, and I think we all no what that got us. I would be more than happy if KG is never involved in a major ownership role.

Taylor will always want the wolves in Minny, and has never been cheap when it came to salaries. Can anyone name one instance when Taylor said it was too much money to sign someone. Remember that Love did get the max salary, just not max years.

I don't see how one game in Mexico city is responsible for a 2-7 record. The wolves could easily have come home for a couple days between Saturday and Wednesday games.

Flip has not done a good job when it comes to filling out the roster. He signed Bud, and Pek to new deals with both having major injury concerns. He signed Hummel at the very least too early in the off season, and with the intent to use him at PF. Hummel is way too small with no athleticism to even be considered for that spot. Turiaf apparently had his hip issue during training camp. Rather than buying out JJ, they might have though about dumping Hummel and/or Turiaf, or buying out Bud instead of JJ. There were many different ways to go with this roster, and it seems as if Flip has chosen poorly in each instance.

Maybe some of his decisions like Young had something to do with convincing Ricky to re-sign here, and so he couldn't go full rebuild mode. Either way, this team has options in front of it, and it is time for Flip to make some hard decisions.

My logic isn't about net worth. Every decision Taylor has made since trading away KG has been about saving money. This Mexico thing was yet another decision about saving a few bucks and nothing more. That is my point. We would likely be 2-7 either way but as a franchise we are philosophically crippled. We should be considering team building, establishing leadership. Instead we are just trying to perpetually stop the bleeding. Taylor has been habitually angling this franchise for a sale through being economically frugal and you can't do that and field a competitive team at the same time.

First off, I have heard nothing about the Mexico trip being optional, only that Taylor got more money for it counting against our home games. The wolves have been over the cap almost every season since I can remember. How does Taylor have anything to do with Team building and establishing leadership. He obviously OK'ed a large contract for Pek, Ricky, Martin, etc. so I am not sure what he should have done differently.

If you want to attack him for bring Flip back, I am completely onboard. For all the country club hires, absolutely, but it has never been about money with him. If it was, he would have sold the team years ago. You might be interested to know that over the last several years it has been the minority ownership complaining to Taylor about the losses.

[thedoper]

First off, I have heard nothing about the Mexico trip being optional, only that Taylor got more money for it counting against our home games. The wolves have been over the cap almost every season since I can remember. How does Taylor have anything to do with Team building and establishing leadership. He obviously OK'ed a large contract for Pek, Ricky, Martin, etc. so I am not sure what he should have done differently.

If you want to attack him for bring Flip back, I am completely onboard. For all the country club hires, absolutely, but it has never been about money with him. If it was, he would have sold the team years ago. You might be interested to know that over the last several years it has been the minority ownership complaining to Taylor about the losses.

I think you are ignoring all of his statements going right back to when KG left and up to the last lockout about the need to tighten the financial reigns of this franchise. It is always the supplemental costs when Taylor gets involved and not the bottom line expenditures on yearly player salary. I.e. (not giving Love a 5th year for no reason other than to try and have a tough negotiating stance with players, hiring cheap staff:Kahn, Rambis, no developmental staff until this year).

Believe what you will but this was Kahn on Love and the max contract:

"We handled it the best way we can, and of course I handled it per instructions from the owner. Glen and I talked about it at length. I think it actually took me some time to tell Glen it was imperative he receive max money. The only issue, the only quibble came down to that last year [...]. It's an awfully long time to string a contract out with all the variables that can occur mostly due to injuries and oftentimes to big men. That was it. I think Kevin really had his heart set on a fifth year. I think his friendship with Russell Westbrook (who signed a five-year deal with OKC) made it difficult to accept, but that's why I also prevailed upon Glen that we should relent and give him a third-year option so he felt like he was winning something too. In every compromise it's important for both sides to walk away with something that was valuable to have."

Taylor didn't even want him to give the max at all because of the danger of going back to luxury tax levels. How can that be considered anything but frugal? I believe Taylor got a lot of credit in Minnesota because of the initial success in the KG years and the extra money he was willing to invest in the franchise at that point but he has completely lost credibility to me. There hasn't been clear direction at all, and too me the cause of that has been a financially conservative approach from a conservative owner who is going to end up making out with billions of dollars in profits on a franchise that he has done nothing positive for in the last 10 years.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I don't share the disdain for Taylor that some have on this board. I admit he hurt the franchise badly by his Joe Smith bungling and I never agreed with his Kahn hiring, but overall he has been a decent owner. I don't know how he can be considered cheap, because I can't think of one instance where he has said no to his GM. Glen wants to win, and is willing to spend to get there. I wish he hadn't agreed to be the home team in Mexico City, but as it turns out with Ricky's injury, it was pretty clear to me that they were going to lose their next five games...with or without the Mex City junket. Agreeing to play there was not about money. Silver really wanted to find two teams to play there, and there weren't many volunteers. Glen is head of the owner's group, and stepped up to give Silver what he wanted. In the long run, it can't be a bad thing to be on Silver's good side.

Glen's an odd guy, but he's just fine as an owner. KG would be a train wreck.

[mjs34]

I think you are ignoring all of his statements going right back to when KG left and up to the last lockout about the need to tighten the financial reigns of this franchise. It is always the supplemental costs when Taylor gets involved and not the bottom line expenditures on yearly player salary. I.e. (not giving Love a 5th year for no reason other than to try and have a tough negotiating stance with players, hiring cheap staff:Kahn, Rambis, no developmental staff until this year).


Taylor didn't even want him to give the max at all because of the danger of going back to luxury tax levels. How can that be considered anything but frugal? I believe Taylor got a lot of credit in Minnesota because of the initial success in the KG years and the extra money he was willing to invest in the franchise at that point but he has completely lost credibility to me. There hasn't been clear direction at all, and too me the cause of that has been a financially conservative approach from a conservative owner who is going to end up making out with billions of dollars in profits on a franchise that he has done nothing positive for in the last 10 years.

Other than hiring a shooting coach this season, what has changed, and is different from other teams. SA's shooting coach is an assistant on their staff.

GS didn't want to give up Klay for Love, but then didn't give Klay a max salary or five year deal. Apparently they didn't value Love anymore than Taylor, and they are looking at the current Love, rather than the player 3 years ago.

I would be interested to hear how he is going to make out with billions of dollars in profits though. I doubt he could get more than 600 mil for them, and considering he has lost money most years, and owned them for 20 years, I wouldn't consider that making out real well.

[thedoper]

Sorry. I meant hundreds of millions. The bucks got over 6 before the Balmer purchase and the new TV deal. And how is making hundreds of millions of dollars on a shit product (perhaps the wost product in the league since KG left) not making out well?

[thedoper]

I don't share the disdain for Taylor that some have on this board. I admit he hurt the franchise badly by his Joe Smith bungling and I never agreed with his Kahn hiring, but overall he has been a decent owner. I don't know how he can be considered cheap, because I can't think of one instance where he has said no to his GM. Glen wants to win, and is willing to spend to get there. I wish he hadn't agreed to be the home team in Mexico City, but as it turns out with Ricky's injury, it was pretty clear to me that they were going to lose their next five games...with or without the Mex City junket. Agreeing to play there was not about money. Silver really wanted to find two teams to play there, and there weren't many volunteers. Glen is head of the owner's group, and stepped up to give Silver what he wanted. In the long run, it can't be a bad thing to be on Silver's good side.

Glen's an odd guy, but he's just fine as an owner. KG would be a train wreck.

What since the Kg trade has showed you that Taylor wants to win? If this has been the way he wants to win then by those standards alone he is the worst owner in the league. If he wants to win so bad and we have the longest playoff drought in the league logic compels me to believe he is not effective at achieving his goals. But what he really has wanted and is on record as saying that he wanted to make the team financially feasible for sale. I highly doubt it pains him to know of the future boon before him as the losses pile up.

Here is Robson on Taylor's financial plan for the team pre-Flip. Reading between the lines it is all about Taylor getting out and nothing about making a winning, money-making franchise now.

http://tcbmag.com/Leadership/Leaders/Glen-Taylor-s-Three-Point-Play

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

doper....you are a great armchair QB. What would YOU have done differently? I will await the list of things you would have done differently since KG left that would have vaulted us to the top of the West.

[mjs34]

I don't share the disdain for Taylor that some have on this board. I admit he hurt the franchise badly by his Joe Smith bungling and I never agreed with his Kahn hiring, but overall he has been a decent owner. I don't know how he can be considered cheap, because I can't think of one instance where he has said no to his GM. Glen wants to win, and is willing to spend to get there. I wish he hadn't agreed to be the home team in Mexico City, but as it turns out with Ricky's injury, it was pretty clear to me that they were going to lose their next five games...with or without the Mex City junket. Agreeing to play there was not about money. Silver really wanted to find two teams to play there, and there weren't many volunteers. Glen is head of the owner's group, and stepped up to give Silver what he wanted. In the long run, it can't be a bad thing to be on Silver's good side.

Glen's an odd guy, but he's just fine as an owner. KG would be a train wreck.

What since the Kg trade has showed you that Taylor wants to win? If this has been the way he wants to win then by those standards alone he is the worst owner in the league. If he wants to win so bad and we have the longest playoff drought in the league logic compels me to believe he is not effective at achieving his goals. But what he really has wanted and is on record as saying that he wanted to make the team financially feasible for sale. I highly doubt it pains him to know of the future boon before him as the losses pile up.

Here is Robson on Taylor's financial plan for the team pre-Flip. Reading between the lines it is all about Taylor getting out and nothing about making a winning, money-making franchise now.

http://tcbmag.com/Leadership/Leaders/Glen-Taylor-s-Three-Point-Play

Seems like it was about three things, making them competitive (which he did, at least for a little while). Remodeling the Target Center, which has been approved, and getting the team a better revenue deal from the league which he also accomplished. I don't see anything in the article that comes across as negative. Taylor admits that Kahn and Rambis clashed, and that Adelman did make a list (as I have stated in the past :o) of players he wanted gone. Robson states that there are risks in the plan, but never states anything that suggests it was just about money. The reading between the lines is your own view Doper.

The most important thing in the whole article is that Taylor's #1 priority was keeping the wolves in Minny.

[thedoper]

Seems like it was about three things, making them competitive (which he did, at least for a little while). Remodeling the Target Center, which has been approved, and getting the team a better revenue deal from the league which he also accomplished. I don't see anything in the article that comes across as negative. Taylor admits that Kahn and Rambis clashed, and that Adelman did make a list (as I have stated in the past :o) of players he wanted gone. Robson states that there are risks in the plan, but never states anything that suggests it was just about money. The reading between the lines is your own view Doper.

The most important thing in the whole article is that Taylor's #1 priority was keeping the wolves in Minny.

I never denied that it was my view. :) Of the three things I think you have to admit making us competitive was never really accomplished. Taylor has done positive things as an owner but in my view they have been in his self interest primarily. Notice I haven't even mentioned his penchant for meddling and his classes criticism of players when they leave. Flip has potentially given us some real talent to build a future with, but you can't tell me straight faced that you don't believe there is a good chance that Glen's meddling could not derail the rebuild.