Wolves 2.0

[Lipoli390]

It’s interesting to see folks lumping Clark and TSJ together from an offensive or shooting perspective. Nothing could be further from the truth. In his final college season, TSJ averaged 23 points shooting 47.5% from field, 36.2% from behind the arc on a plentiful 6.4 attempts and 80% from the free throw line on a robust 8.6 attempts. He averaged close to 34% from behind the arc and 79.3% from the line during his college career. In contrast, Clark averaged 13 points shooting 33% from behind the arc and only 69.7% from the line his final college season. He averaged 30.2% from behind the arc and 66% from the line during his college career.

These guys are too VERY different players. TSJ is big-time scorer who can shoot and defend. Clark is a defender who doesn’t score or shoot.

[Jester1534]

This is part where i say i wish Mike Conely was 5 years younger.

Is always hard to see father time catch a player but thats what has happened this year.

All this thread proves is Tim Conelly is pretty good at his job and were lucky to have him after so many inept peole in charge.

It was hard to let my favorite player go but i do know in my heart it was best for the franchise. Look at Knicks now with them having a bottom 5 defense this year under thibs.

Idk which way they will go this offseason but I will trust the process till i see a reason not to.

At the end of the day it all comes down to Ants development. All this doesn't matter unless becomes our Kobe or Michael or name a superstar that ascended to championship level.

[kekgeek]

It’s interesting to see folks lumping Clark and TSJ together from an offensive or shooting perspective. Nothing could be further from the truth. In his final college season, TSJ averaged 23 points shooting 47.5% from field, 36.2% from behind the arc on a plentiful 6.4 attempts and 80% from the free throw line on a robust 8.6 attempts. He averaged close to 34% from behind the arc and 79.3% from the line during his college career. In contrast, Clark averaged 13 points shooting 33% from behind the arc and only 69.7% from the line his final college season. He averaged 30.2% from behind the arc and 66% from the line during his college career.

These guys are too VERY different players. TSJ is big-time scorer who can shoot and defend. Clark is a defender who doesn’t score or shoot.

I think it’s because we are going off what they have done in the NBA so far. He is currently shooting 22% from 3, he shot 0% in the preseason, 25% in the summer league and 33% in the G league. In the Thunder game was passing up wide open 3s what is concerning. At the moment he is a bad NBA shooter. Then in coming junior year he shot 156 3s and shot 32% but he was bad from 3 everywhere besides the left slot. He shot 18.2% from the left corner, 30.8% from the right corner, 43.9% from the left slot, 30.8% from the right slot and 25.5% straight on.


He was in the 37th percentile shooting off the dribble and 31st percentile on catch and shoot opportunities in college.


Then he is also 24:

Since 2008, there have only been 11 seniors selected with an assist rate (AST/TO) of 1.2 or worse, per Bart Torvik’s database: Buddy Hield, Jimmer Fredette, Chris Duarte, Ochai Agbaji, Matisse Thybulle, Marshon Brooks, Quincy Pondexter, Lazar Hayward, Davon Reed, Carrick Felix and Orlando Johnson. Hield and Thybulle are the only two hits in that group.

Hield stuck around because of his shooting and Thybulle because of his defense


At the moment Shannon is bringing elite play in transition and is competing on both ends of the ball but I just don’t see a great player in there. I think once he gets scouted more he will struggle, however I’m enjoying what he is bringing now. I know you hate the comp but he reminds me of Shabazz good and bad. Gets down hill at an elite level, goes to the FT line, good rebounder that tries hard but currently is just an average defender, who at the moment not great playmakers and were not in college also, who are at the moment a bad jump shooter

[FNG]

It’s interesting to see folks lumping Clark and TSJ together from an offensive or shooting perspective. Nothing could be further from the truth. In his final college season, TSJ averaged 23 points shooting 47.5% from field, 36.2% from behind the arc on a plentiful 6.4 attempts and 80% from the free throw line on a robust 8.6 attempts. He averaged close to 34% from behind the arc and 79.3% from the line during his college career. In contrast, Clark averaged 13 points shooting 33% from behind the arc and only 69.7% from the line his final college season. He averaged 30.2% from behind the arc and 66% from the line during his college career.

These guys are too VERY different players. TSJ is big-time scorer who can shoot and defend. Clark is a defender who doesn’t score or shoot.

I think it’s because we are going off what they have done in the NBA so far. He is currently shooting 22% from 3, he shot 0% in the preseason, 25% in the summer league and 33% in the G league. In the Thunder game was passing up wide open 3s what is concerning. At the moment he is a bad NBA shooter. Then in coming junior year he shot 156 3s and shot 32% but he was bad from 3 everywhere besides the left slot. He shot 18.2% from the left corner, 30.8% from the right corner, 43.9% from the left slot, 30.8% from the right slot and 25.5% straight on.


He was in the 37th percentile shooting off the dribble and 31st percentile on catch and shoot opportunities in college.


Then he is also 24:

Since 2008, there have only been 11 seniors selected with an assist rate (AST/TO) of 1.2 or worse, per Bart Torvik’s database: Buddy Hield, Jimmer Fredette, Chris Duarte, Ochai Agbaji, Matisse Thybulle, Marshon Brooks, Quincy Pondexter, Lazar Hayward, Davon Reed, Carrick Felix and Orlando Johnson. Hield and Thybulle are the only two hits in that group.

Hield stuck around because of his shooting and Thybulle because of his defense


At the moment Shannon is bringing elite play in transition and is competing on both ends of the ball but I just don’t see a great player in there. I think once he gets scouted more he will struggle, however I’m enjoying what he is bringing now. I know you hate the comp but he reminds me of Shabazz good and bad. Gets down hill at an elite level, goes to the FT line, good rebounder that tries hard but currently is just an average defender, who at the moment not great playmakers and were not in college also, who are at the moment a bad jump shooter

Yeah, there are a lot of things I like about Shannon, but I don't have great hopes for him ever being an outside shooter. I'm somewhat heartened by the 36% 3-point shooting his senior year that Lip cites (albeit at the college 3-point distance), but we have 4 years of college data to look at in addition to his poor shooting so far at the NBA level...and he was less than 35% for his career. But more important to me is his bad shooting form...he just doesn't like a guy who is going to be successful beyond the arc. And unfortunately the Shabazz comparison has some validity. While Shabazz had some success beyond the arc in college (close to 38%), his form never looked good to me. I don't think any of us are surprised to see he is a career 32% 3-point shooter. Both Shabazz and TJ were able to bully defenders in college with their superior size and strength, and I had some hope Shabazz could repeat this at the pro level...but he couldn't consistently.

All that said, I still think TJ has a good chance to be a solid NBA rotation player. His defense will get better with coaching and experience (tends to lose his man at times when overhelping), but he is already pretty good. His effort, size and athleticism make him a great candidate to be an excellent defender. And the same qualities could make him a scorer in the NBA even if he never develops an outside shot. But getting back to the point of this thread, I have concerns about how he will fit into Ant's ball-dominant slow-pace halfcourt game. We saw TJ at his best Monday night playing full speed with the kids. It remains to be seen how he will look paired with Ant. Ant's willingness to push the pace could really unlock players like TJ.

[Q-is-here]

Kek, good info on Shannon. Yeah, we kinda need to cool our jets a bit on him. Now if he were 21 years old instead of 24, a lot of that stuff could be taken with a grain of salt, but given his age it's fair to wonder how much he can really improve as a passer, mid-range pull up shooter, etc.

I do think he can improve his stationary 3-point shooting, as that is something we've seen players still be able to develop in their mid-20s. NAW is a good example and he has a funky release too. I'll throw Norman Powell out there as well, who shot the ball for four years at UCLA even worse than what Shannon did in college.

But he obviously doesn't have confidence in it right now since he often hesitates with it and prefers to drive. I think his free-throw shooting percentage is a solid indicator that he can eventually be a good, if not great, 3-point shooter. Time will tell.

Edit: I just noticed that TJ does have a better than 2:1 assist to TO ratio so far this season! It's in limited minutes of course. I'm sure a part of it is that he's not expected to initiate much offense and instead plays off others. He's really a forward in my mind and should play the 3 in normal lineups and could probably play some 4 in small-ball lineups. I don't ever see him becoming a secondary offensive initiator.

[kekgeek]

Kek, good info on Shannon. Yeah, we kinda need to cool our jets a bit on him. Now if he were 21 years old instead of 24, a lot of that stuff could be taken with a grain of salt, but given his age it's fair to wonder how much he can really improve as a passer, mid-range pull up shooter, etc.

I do think he can improve his stationary 3-point shooting, as that is something we've seen players still be able to develop in their mid-20s. NAW is a good example and he has a funky release too. I'll throw Norman Powell out there as well, who shot the ball for four years at UCLA even worse than what Shannon did in college.

But he obviously doesn't have confidence in it right now since he often hesitates with it and prefers to drive. I think his free-throw shooting percentage is a solid indicator that he can eventually be a good, if not great, 3-point shooter. Time will tell.

I want to say because it seems like I’m shitting on Shannon. I think he will be a very solid NBA rotation piece. I think where he is at right now can be super effective in the regular season. I just think he will struggle when the game slows down in the playoffs. I’m happy TSJ is on the wolves I personally don’t see how his game translates to the playoffs. I would love to be wrong though.

[Q-is-here]

Kek, good info on Shannon. Yeah, we kinda need to cool our jets a bit on him. Now if he were 21 years old instead of 24, a lot of that stuff could be taken with a grain of salt, but given his age it's fair to wonder how much he can really improve as a passer, mid-range pull up shooter, etc.

I do think he can improve his stationary 3-point shooting, as that is something we've seen players still be able to develop in their mid-20s. NAW is a good example and he has a funky release too. I'll throw Norman Powell out there as well, who shot the ball for four years at UCLA even worse than what Shannon did in college.

But he obviously doesn't have confidence in it right now since he often hesitates with it and prefers to drive. I think his free-throw shooting percentage is a solid indicator that he can eventually be a good, if not great, 3-point shooter. Time will tell.

I want to say because it seems like I’m shitting on Shannon. I think he will be a very solid NBA rotation piece. I think where he is at right now can be super effective in the regular season. I just think he will struggle when the game slows down in the playoffs. I’m happy TSJ is on the wolves I personally don’t see how his game translates to the playoffs. I would love to be wrong though.

Understood, you are just bringing a dose of reality. I agree that once he gets scouted and if he ends up in the crucible of a 7-game series, these weaknesses you point out can get really magnified. But at worst he seems like a very serviceable bench wing....and that's absolute worst-case scenario.

[FNG]

Kek, good info on Shannon. Yeah, we kinda need to cool our jets a bit on him. Now if he were 21 years old instead of 24, a lot of that stuff could be taken with a grain of salt, but given his age it's fair to wonder how much he can really improve as a passer, mid-range pull up shooter, etc.

I do think he can improve his stationary 3-point shooting, as that is something we've seen players still be able to develop in their mid-20s. NAW is a good example and he has a funky release too. I'll throw Norman Powell out there as well, who shot the ball for four years at UCLA even worse than what Shannon did in college.

But he obviously doesn't have confidence in it right now since he often hesitates with it and prefers to drive. I think his free-throw shooting percentage is a solid indicator that he can eventually be a good, if not great, 3-point shooter. Time will tell.

Edit: I just noticed that TJ does have a better than 2:1 assist to TO ratio so far this season! It's in limited minutes of course. I'm sure a part of it is that he's not expected to initiate much offense and instead plays off others. He's really a forward in my mind and should play the 3 in normal lineups and could probably play some 4 in small-ball lineups. I don't ever see him becoming a secondary offensive initiator.

Q, good observation on NAW. I was immediately impressed with his defense and hustle, but I posted here (wrongly it turns out) that I didn't think he would ever be a successful 3-point shooter. It would be great if TJ could also turn into high 30's% shooter, and it's not out of the question. I will say though that I have more problems with TJ's shooting form than I did with NAW's, and NAW was a pretty good 3-point shooter in college.

[Q-is-here]

Kek, good info on Shannon. Yeah, we kinda need to cool our jets a bit on him. Now if he were 21 years old instead of 24, a lot of that stuff could be taken with a grain of salt, but given his age it's fair to wonder how much he can really improve as a passer, mid-range pull up shooter, etc.

I do think he can improve his stationary 3-point shooting, as that is something we've seen players still be able to develop in their mid-20s. NAW is a good example and he has a funky release too. I'll throw Norman Powell out there as well, who shot the ball for four years at UCLA even worse than what Shannon did in college.

But he obviously doesn't have confidence in it right now since he often hesitates with it and prefers to drive. I think his free-throw shooting percentage is a solid indicator that he can eventually be a good, if not great, 3-point shooter. Time will tell.

Edit: I just noticed that TJ does have a better than 2:1 assist to TO ratio so far this season! It's in limited minutes of course. I'm sure a part of it is that he's not expected to initiate much offense and instead plays off others. He's really a forward in my mind and should play the 3 in normal lineups and could probably play some 4 in small-ball lineups. I don't ever see him becoming a secondary offensive initiator.

Q, good observation on NAW. I was immediately impressed with his defense and hustle, but I posted here (wrongly it turns out) that I didn't think he would ever be a successful 3-point shooter. It would be great if TJ could also turn into high 30's% shooter, and it's not out of the question. I will say though that I have more problems with TJ's shooting form than I did with NAW's, and NAW was a pretty good 3-point shooter in college.

Shannon's form is very similar to Naz's form and that's worked out pretty well for Naz! Speaking of which, Naz is another example of a guy that was a mediocre to middling 3-point shooter in college and his first few years in the NBA and only emerged last season as a big-time threat. And guess what? His shooting motion looks exactly the same as it always has!

There is no guarantee that Shannon will become a good shooter, but I think he has it in him. He will be so much more effective in the half court if that happens.

[Coolbreeze44]

Good discourse guys. I just think it's remarkable that we have so many young pieces to build with after the Gobert trade. As someone else mentioned in this thread it all depends on what Ant becomes, or on finding a Kawhi/Joker type surprise in the draft. Losing KAT was tough but it had to happen. The good news is the future continues to look bright.