Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I still go back to when Teddy got injured and the idiot Spielman gave up a 1st rounder for Bradford. Who, always was a bottom of the barrel QB. That next draft both Deshaun Watson and Mahomes went, 12th and 10th respectively. That was such a boneheaded trade. We could have had either of those if he wasn't a moron.

Hindsight is tough there. They felt they had a championship-level team. We came out of the gate hot went like 5-0 or 6.0. Then we fell apart. I think some of that reaction was because we had a new stadium. For me, it was because we didn't invest in a backup.

Yeah, well I hated the trade at the time. It wasn't hindsight for me. Bradford had the worst stats of any QB in the league before and since, it's because he sucks. I don't mind trying to find another QB, the problem was giving up a 1st and Bradford himself. The reason he kept getting chances was because he was 1st overall. It was stupid. It was almost as bad as the Herschel trade.

The funny thing about that trade was Bradford was VERY good that year for them. They didn't lose that season because of QB play. I liked Bradford but I wouldn't have given up what they did but it did make sense. They also didn't know what the situation was going to be with Teddy. Bradford's contract was fairly reasonable as well if he was actually healthy and played well...he did play well that season.

Drafting a QB is tricky. There certainly could have been some guys over the past couple years that would look good now especially since they would still be cheap.

The problem with Cousins right now is his fumbling. His passing isn't good enough either but the guy has fumbled 6 times in 4 games. That's been a problem his whole career (for context he has played with bad oline pretty much his whole career but..) that's killing this team as much as anything else he has done...besides that bad throw against the Packers. Ultimately IF...at the end of this season we learn Cousins isn't the answer (I don't think that's certain quite yet) that could end up being a positive if we move on especially if we actually add the right QB. The season isn't over yet. Stay tuned if you can stomach it.

I don't disagree with most of your assessment, just a bit. However I will add some stats for you and TheSP to digest.

In Bradfords best two years, with the Eagles and with the Vikings he had a WORSE YPA 7.0 than any year Cousins has had as a starter! You can't fake YPA. All the best QB's are high in YPA consistently and the bad ones are bad. It's consistent over a season and over a career. Bad QB's will complete passes at a lower rate for lower yardage. Great QB's will be higher.

Bradford over his career was 6.6 YPA. One of the worst you can ever find for a longterm starting QB. You simply are not completing passes for good yardage. You can fake completion percentage somewhat by dumping off, YPA makes you throw the ball past the line of scrimmage.

Cousins is 7.6 career in YPA. Even still 7.1 this year. He's not even as bad as Bradford was with the Vikings so far.

Joe Flacco - 6.8 career YPA.

Eli Manning- 7.0 career YPA

Aaron Rodgers - 7.8 career YPA

Patrick Mahomes - 8.9 career YPA (we'll see if he can keep this up!) amazing start

WolvesFan21 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I still go back to when Teddy got injured and the idiot Spielman gave up a 1st rounder for Bradford. Who, always was a bottom of the barrel QB. That next draft both Deshaun Watson and Mahomes went, 12th and 10th respectively. That was such a boneheaded trade. We could have had either of those if he wasn't a moron.

Hindsight is tough there. They felt they had a championship-level team. We came out of the gate hot went like 5-0 or 6.0. Then we fell apart. I think some of that reaction was because we had a new stadium. For me, it was because we didn't invest in a backup.

Yeah, well I hated the trade at the time. It wasn't hindsight for me. Bradford had the worst stats of any QB in the league before and since, it's because he sucks. I don't mind trying to find another QB, the problem was giving up a 1st and Bradford himself. The reason he kept getting chances was because he was 1st overall. It was stupid. It was almost as bad as the Herschel trade.

The funny thing about that trade was Bradford was VERY good that year for them. They didn't lose that season because of QB play. I liked Bradford but I wouldn't have given up what they did but it did make sense. They also didn't know what the situation was going to be with Teddy. Bradford's contract was fairly reasonable as well if he was actually healthy and played well...he did play well that season.

Drafting a QB is tricky. There certainly could have been some guys over the past couple years that would look good now especially since they would still be cheap.

The problem with Cousins right now is his fumbling. His passing isn't good enough either but the guy has fumbled 6 times in 4 games. That's been a problem his whole career (for context he has played with bad oline pretty much his whole career but..) that's killing this team as much as anything else he has done...besides that bad throw against the Packers. Ultimately IF...at the end of this season we learn Cousins isn't the answer (I don't think that's certain quite yet) that could end up being a positive if we move on especially if we actually add the right QB. The season isn't over yet. Stay tuned if you can stomach it.

I don't disagree with most of your assessment, just a bit. However I will add some stats for you and TheSP to digest.

In Bradfords best two years, with the Eagles and with the Vikings he had a WORSE YPA 7.0 than any year Cousins has had as a starter! You can't fake YPA. All the best QB's are high in YPA consistently and the bad ones are bad. It's consistent over a season and over a career. Bad QB's will complete passes at a lower rate for lower yardage. Great QB's will be higher.

Bradford over his career was 6.6 YPA. One of the worst you can ever find for a longterm starting QB. You simply are not completing passes for good yardage. You can fake completion percentage somewhat by dumping off, YPA makes you throw the ball past the line of scrimmage.

Cousins is 7.6 career in YPA. Even still 7.1 this year. He's not even as bad as Bradford was with the Vikings so far.

Joe Flacco - 6.8 career YPA.

Eli Manning- 7.0 career YPA

Aaron Rodgers - 7.8 career YPA

Patrick Mahomes - 8.9 career YPA (we'll see if he can keep this up!) amazing start

Last season the Vikings were dead last in yards per attempt.

These are worthwhile stats. I'll say that in Bradford's defense look at the WRs he had with the Rams. The year with the Vikings? Horrendous pass protection they were just getting the ball out quickly and Bradford was still getting crushed. I'm not suggesting Bradford was great or maybe even pretty good but I do think IF he had stayed healthy he would have been a nice player for the Vikings and considering where they were as a team it did look like they needed a QB. Let's not forget the Vikings were ripped a ton for bringing in Case Keenum. Most people thought he wasn't even a good backup. He had a terrific season for the Vikings and I think they probably made the right call in letting him go.

This also leads me to thinking about how much a good OC is for a QB and an offense. Shurmer was able to get something out of a couple flawed QBs. He wasn't exactly a miracle worker I suppose but we haven't done as well since he left. Remember when it was Musgrave was ripped for the offense? Turns out he was working with a underwhelming young starter. Ponder was likely a much bigger issue than Musgrave as OC. If the Vikings offense continues to struggle this Kubiak Stefanski combo isn't going to look good with all the high level skill players in the offense even with a mediocre oline and an averag-ish QB. Still 3/4 of the season to go and hopefully Bradbury improves as the season goes on.

Deshaun Watson - 8.1 career YPA - Real Solid start

Jared Goff - 7.7 career YPA - Solid Start

Peyton Manning - 7.7 Career YPA (had one year 9.2 in one of his MVP seasons)

Tom Brady - 7.5 Career YPA

I also think the rules lend to YPA going up slightly over time and recently. Can't hit and cover WR's as you once could.

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I still go back to when Teddy got injured and the idiot Spielman gave up a 1st rounder for Bradford. Who, always was a bottom of the barrel QB. That next draft both Deshaun Watson and Mahomes went, 12th and 10th respectively. That was such a boneheaded trade. We could have had either of those if he wasn't a moron.

Hindsight is tough there. They felt they had a championship-level team. We came out of the gate hot went like 5-0 or 6.0. Then we fell apart. I think some of that reaction was because we had a new stadium. For me, it was because we didn't invest in a backup.

Yeah, well I hated the trade at the time. It wasn't hindsight for me. Bradford had the worst stats of any QB in the league before and since, it's because he sucks. I don't mind trying to find another QB, the problem was giving up a 1st and Bradford himself. The reason he kept getting chances was because he was 1st overall. It was stupid. It was almost as bad as the Herschel trade.

The funny thing about that trade was Bradford was VERY good that year for them. They didn't lose that season because of QB play. I liked Bradford but I wouldn't have given up what they did but it did make sense. They also didn't know what the situation was going to be with Teddy. Bradford's contract was fairly reasonable as well if he was actually healthy and played well...he did play well that season.

Drafting a QB is tricky. There certainly could have been some guys over the past couple years that would look good now especially since they would still be cheap.

The problem with Cousins right now is his fumbling. His passing isn't good enough either but the guy has fumbled 6 times in 4 games. That's been a problem his whole career (for context he has played with bad oline pretty much his whole career but..) that's killing this team as much as anything else he has done...besides that bad throw against the Packers. Ultimately IF...at the end of this season we learn Cousins isn't the answer (I don't think that's certain quite yet) that could end up being a positive if we move on especially if we actually add the right QB. The season isn't over yet. Stay tuned if you can stomach it.

I don't disagree with most of your assessment, just a bit. However I will add some stats for you and TheSP to digest.

In Bradfords best two years, with the Eagles and with the Vikings he had a WORSE YPA 7.0 than any year Cousins has had as a starter! You can't fake YPA. All the best QB's are high in YPA consistently and the bad ones are bad. It's consistent over a season and over a career. Bad QB's will complete passes at a lower rate for lower yardage. Great QB's will be higher.

Bradford over his career was 6.6 YPA. One of the worst you can ever find for a longterm starting QB. You simply are not completing passes for good yardage. You can fake completion percentage somewhat by dumping off, YPA makes you throw the ball past the line of scrimmage.

Cousins is 7.6 career in YPA. Even still 7.1 this year. He's not even as bad as Bradford was with the Vikings so far.

Joe Flacco - 6.8 career YPA.

Eli Manning- 7.0 career YPA

Aaron Rodgers - 7.8 career YPA

Patrick Mahomes - 8.9 career YPA (we'll see if he can keep this up!) amazing start

Last season the Vikings were dead last in yards per attempt.

These are worthwhile stats. I'll say that in Bradford's defense look at the WRs he had with the Rams. The year with the Vikings? Horrendous pass protection they were just getting the ball out quickly and Bradford was still getting crushed. I'm not suggesting Bradford was great or maybe even pretty good but I do think IF he had stayed healthy he would have been a nice player for the Vikings and considering where they were as a team it did look like they needed a QB. Let's not forget the Vikings were ripped a ton for bringing in Case Keenum. Most people thought he wasn't even a good backup. He had a terrific season for the Vikings and I think they probably made the right call in letting him go.

This also leads me to thinking about how much a good OC is for a QB and an offense. Shurmer was able to get something out of a couple flawed QBs. He wasn't exactly a miracle worker I suppose but we haven't done as well since he left. Remember when it was Musgrave was ripped for the offense? Turns out he was working with a underwhelming young starter. Ponder was likely a much bigger issue than Musgrave as OC. If the Vikings offense continues to struggle this Kubiak Stefanski combo isn't going to look good with all the high level skill players in the offense even with a mediocre oline and an averag-ish QB. Still 3/4 of the season to go and hopefully Bradbury improves as the season goes on.

I agree you have to also look at the situation they are in. It matters, but still. Cousins had every single year better stat wise than every single year of Bradfords. I think at some point you get it done over 5-6 years. You can't blame everyone else forever for your poor production.

Teddy which played with largely the same WR's and OLine did better than Bradford in his rookie year and 2nd season. 7.3 YPA and 7.2. Teddy is a backup now which of course is largely to do with his injury but still. He performed better than Bradford.

monsterpile- I also know that the Vikings were not the worst in YPA. I looked up one QB Flacco and he was 6.5 last season and Jackson was 7.1 so avg 6.9? Cousins was 7.1. Yes it was his worst season. Yes losing Shermer was huge. I think he did a great job with Keenum. I knew when we lost him kurt offense would be hurt. No point in bringing back Keenum when you lose the system.

So I did more research and 12 QB's were worse than Cousins last season in YPA with significant attempts/playing time. Guys like Stafford, Dalton, Keenum, etc. Yes YPA isn't everything either. We could use QB rating?

Under QB rating Cousins was 10th in the NFL last season. Ahead of Rodgers. Brady, Roethlisberger.

I just don't see why people are bashing him so much? He's not even the highest paid. He's 7th highest right now.

Yeah he's not Mahomes, blame the idiot Spielman.

WolvesFan21 wrote:monsterpile- I also know that the Vikings were not the worst in YPA. I looked up one QB Flacco and he was 6.5 last season and Jackson was 7.1 so avg 6.9? Cousins was 7.1. Yes it was his worst season. Yes losing Shermer was huge. I think he did a great job with Keenum. I knew when we lost him kurt offense would be hurt. No point in bringing back Keenum when you lose the system.

So I did more research and 12 QB's were worse than Cousins last season in YPA with significant attempts/playing time. Guys like Stafford, Dalton, Keenum, etc. Yes YPA isn't everything either. We could use QB rating?

Under QB rating Cousins was 10th in the NFL last season. Ahead of Rodgers. Brady, Roethlisberger.

I just don't see why people are bashing him so much? He's not even the highest paid. He's 7th highest right now.

Yeah he's not Mahomes, blame the idiot Spielman.

He's getting bashed because his cap hit is over 2x higher than the next highest player on the team and he appears to be one of the players holding this team back by not playing well. He's never shown trust in Thielen and Diggs who are arguably the best WR duo in the league. We have a top 5 running back in the league. He has crazy good weapons around him and he's holding the ball, not feeling the pocket and not delivering throws with proper anticipation that he should with WR's of our caliber. Diggs and Thielen are great route runners. Throw the ball with anticipation and trust that they are getting open. He's just late on so many throws and you can see it in the replays that the ball is not being delivered until after their routes break a lot of the time. I'd much rather see picks down the field than fumbles in the pocket because he held onto the ball.

I apologize that I relayed the wrong stat. The Vikings were dead last in yards per completion not attempts. 6th in total attempts 3rd in completion percentage 70% and...13th in total yards.

Hopefully we can get the next Teddy or Lamar Jackson or even pick the right guy higher than those guys went if after the season end it looks like we need to get a QB. I think they need to at least draft a guy next year in the middle round or something but even as a guy who has been sort of a Cousins fan or supporter...I'm leaning towards drafting a guy in the first round...but we need an olineman too...

khans2k5 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:monsterpile- I also know that the Vikings were not the worst in YPA. I looked up one QB Flacco and he was 6.5 last season and Jackson was 7.1 so avg 6.9? Cousins was 7.1. Yes it was his worst season. Yes losing Shermer was huge. I think he did a great job with Keenum. I knew when we lost him kurt offense would be hurt. No point in bringing back Keenum when you lose the system.

So I did more research and 12 QB's were worse than Cousins last season in YPA with significant attempts/playing time. Guys like Stafford, Dalton, Keenum, etc. Yes YPA isn't everything either. We could use QB rating?

Under QB rating Cousins was 10th in the NFL last season. Ahead of Rodgers. Brady, Roethlisberger.

I just don't see why people are bashing him so much? He's not even the highest paid. He's 7th highest right now.

Yeah he's not Mahomes, blame the idiot Spielman.

He's getting bashed because his cap hit is over 2x higher than the next highest player on the team and he appears to be one of the players holding this team back by not playing well. He's never shown trust in Thielen and Diggs who are arguably the best WR duo in the league. We have a top 5 running back in the league. He has crazy good weapons around him and he's holding the ball, not feeling the pocket and not delivering throws with proper anticipation that he should with WR's of our caliber. Diggs and Thielen are great route runners. Throw the ball with anticipation and trust that they are getting open. He's just late on so many throws and you can see it in the replays that the ball is not being delivered until after their routes break a lot of the time. I'd much rather see picks down the field than fumbles in the pocket because he held onto the ball.

I think you're being overly critical a bit. But I agree in general that at times he needs to let it fly sooner, rather then hold the ball. At least throw it away if it's not there.

A QB rating last season better than Rodgers, Brady and Roethlisberger is nothing to sneeze at. I still believe in Cousins. Remember that we have a new offense still with Kubiak and company. I actual think that running the ball too much has been a detriment to the passing game as well. It's harder to get in a rhythm with sch few attempts. Like 10 attempts the first game. I'd like to see the offense closer to 50-50. If not edge slightly to the pass, 55-45. Passing is more efficient. It's a passing league.

The reason the Vikes too a step back last season record wise was because the defense took a step back and so did the running game. Get back to a balanced attack.

I still think the Vikings win the division.