Camden wrote:Do we think LaVine, Wiggins and Ingram are incapable of adding weight and strength? I mean, these guys are 20, 20 and 18. I'm not talking about what we can do with them in 2016-17.
Incapable of adding weight? No. Incapable of adding 20+ lbs. each? Perhaps. Not every guy adds tons of weight. Look at guys like Kevin Martin, Louis Williams, and Corey Brewer. They added may be 5-10 lbs. and that's about it.
Camden wrote:Do we think LaVine, Wiggins and Ingram are incapable of adding weight and strength? I mean, these guys are 20, 20 and 18. I'm not talking about what we can do with them in 2016-17.
I mean we're talking a lot of weight for these guys to add on to match GS. Zach is 20 lbs behind Klay, Wiggins is 15 begin Iggy and Ingram is 35 behind Barnes. I would worry most about Ingram putting that much on. That's 3 offseasons away if we're talking about putting it on at a healthy rate. Is it possible? Yes, but it's also understandable if it doesn't happen and without the strength that unit just wouldn't work defensively.
Weight is overrated to a certain extent. Some guys just know how to play or play much stronger than they look or have a really good base/lower body. There are plenty of outliers for undersized guys to be successful on the defensive end and the lineup Cam suggests would be pretty long but maybe not the strongest. The bottom line is that you want to put your best players on the floor of it give you an advantage. It's a very theoretical lineup but I wouldnt dismiss it either. Who would have guessed a couple years ago that GS lineup would be possibly the best 5 man lineup in the entire league right now?
The bottom line for me is in this draft take BPA within reason and we can figure it out later. There is no position right now that's absolutely filled. For once the Wolves are going into a draft where if a guy falls to them at any position it could be a good thing.
I look at Ingram as a Durant-like player. We remember how thin and weak KD was coming into the league. We've heard a thousand times about how he couldn't do a single rep of 125 in pre-draft workouts (or combine?). The point is, KD was able to bulk up a bit, get much stronger than he was at 18/19. When the Thunder use him at PF, it's fucking lethal. There's not a 4 in the league that stands a chance. I envision the same possibility with Ingram, who's currently playing PF for Duke in their super spaced out offense. I think it could be taking the Warriors small ball lineup and ramping it up a bit because we'd still have the SF playing PF thing, but Towns in the middle makes it much more terrifying.
Yeah, when the major knock on a guy is his being skinny, I'm not too worried. Gobert was considered too skinny. KG was skinny. KD too. I have no concerns with Ingram if we are lucky enough to be in a position to take him.
That bench press is such a dumb way of testing out a guy's strength. Simple physics seems to show guys with long wingspans aren't going to do well in that specific movement. You see that same thing happen to offensive and defensive lineman in the NFL draft who have long arms and "struggle" compared to some other some smaller dude.
I'm not suggesting that we pass on Ingram because he's skinny. My response was based on Cam's question of playing a small lineup with Towns, Rubio, and three wings - Wiggins, Ingram, and LaVine. I just think that group doesn't have the physicality to make it work. Guys like LeBron and Iggy are built like linebackers, which means they can battle it out at the 4.
As for Durant, yeah he's still pretty skinny, but the dude is like 7-feet tall now with a ridiculous wingspan. Ingram might be long, but he's not THAT long.
Q12543 wrote:I'm not suggesting that we pass on Ingram because he's skinny. My response was based on Cam's question of playing a small lineup with Towns, Rubio, and three wings - Wiggins, Ingram, and LaVine. I just think that group doesn't have the physicality to make it work. Guys like LeBron and Iggy are built like linebackers, which means they can battle it out at the 4.
As for Durant, yeah he's still pretty skinny, but the dude is like 7-feet tall now with a ridiculous wingspan. Ingram might be long, but he's not THAT long.
Ingram's 6' 9.5" with a 7' 3" wingspan and weighs 196 lbs according to Draft Express.
Durant's pre-draft measurements were 6' 10.25" height with a 7' 4.75" wingspan and weighed 215 lbs.
Durant's got all the advantages on him physically, but the kid just turned 18 in September, which leaves open the possibility that he's not done growing yet. And even if he is, he's already got serious length as is.
I doubt we pick higher than 5. I really like Hield's offensive game for us. Murray as well. I like Rabb as a developmental guy for us. I am very intrigued by Skal's upside, but his struggles give me pause.
I finally had a chance to watch Denzel Valentine for a full game. And wow, he just absolutely carved up Indiana with 30 points, 5 boards, 13 assists, 3 steals, 1 block, and only 1 turnover. He was 5-8 from the 3-point line.
The thing about Valentine is he plays under complete control. I saw him force one bad shot and one bad pass the entire game. Otherwise, he made the right decision every single time. He is basically their point guard, as he brought the ball up the court about half the time and the other half the time he was the first guy to touch it after someone else brought it up.
Valentine is definitely a step slow vertically - he will not blow by people off the bounce. But he is very strong with the ball and extremely crafty, with a deft touch in the paint that allows him to get little floaters off even when he's well defended.
As a playmaker, he does two things extremely well, 1) Looks upcourt very quickly to find a streaking team mate. He garnered at least 4 or 5 assists by simply getting the outlet pass and quickly passing the ball to an open runner - typically a shooter that would simply catch it and put up a 3-ball. 2) He is very good as the pick and roll ball handler. Because opponents need to respect his outside shot, they tend to go over screens and hedge hard, which typically leaves the screener wide open. Valentine got a number of assists hitting the roll-man for easy buckets.
Defensively Michigan State plays man to man, so I was able to see him guard guys one on one. He appears to be quicker laterally than vertically (which isn't unusual) and I never saw him get beat off the bounce. His guy tried going back door on him a couple of times and he was able to recover and deflect the pass.
I have no clue why this guy is so low on DX's draft board. He reminds me very much of Evan Turner at Ohio State except with a much better outside shot. So what if the guy is "old" by NBA draftnik standards? When a guy the size of a wing is scoring 30 points, knocking down 3's, and dishing out 13 assists, that's called being a great basketball player. He should be a top 10 pick in my opinion and I would put him right up there with Dunn and Hield as one of my favorites in that next tier down after Ingram and Simmons.
