Trade season

[AbeVigodaLive]

woah

Ya it might be absolutely nothing. Just interesting timing. Lakers also off the board today. Vegas usually knows so it’s fun speculation

Well, there is definitely smoke out there with Giannis and the Wolves. I think TC is under pressure to do something big. We aren't winning a title as is, or even getting back to a conference final. The thing about Giannis is he would take away the need for a point guard. He would take some of the pressure off Ant to always initiate the offense. To me the question is can we swing a huge deal like this without giving up Jaden.

Don't see how that's possible. The Wolves don't have the draft picks...

[Coolbreeze44]

Ya it might be absolutely nothing. Just interesting timing. Lakers also off the board today. Vegas usually knows so it’s fun speculation

Well, there is definitely smoke out there with Giannis and the Wolves. I think TC is under pressure to do something big. We aren't winning a title as is, or even getting back to a conference final. The thing about Giannis is he would take away the need for a point guard. He would take some of the pressure off Ant to always initiate the offense. To me the question is can we swing a huge deal like this without giving up Jaden.

I don't think there's any way this happens without both Jaden and Ju in the deal, plus picks. We aren't going to include Ant, and I don't see anyone else the Bucks might be interested in. I would be intrigued by that deal, but I don't think I would do it.

This probably won't be well received here, but seeing how well we have played without Ant, I would be in favor of a true blockbuster: Ant and Conley for Giannis. I get that Ant is much younger, but I've moved into the camp that I don't see us ever competing for a chip with him as our leader. Giannis is an on/off monster...+20 this year and positive every year of his career...while Ant is a -3.9 this year and barely breakeven for his career. If the Bucks are moving on from Giannis, a deal with Ant in it would likely be as good as they could get. And we could compete with a starting line of Rudy, Ju, Jaden, Giannis, and Donte, with Naz and the youngsters coming off the bench.

I like your idea a lot with one caveat - Giannis is breaking down on a consistent basis. But yeah, a healthy Giannis to me is better than the baby making machine. But you can't have all of Giannis, Rudy, NAZ, and Ju on the same roster. Other moves would have to be made.

[Wolvesfan21]

Ya it might be absolutely nothing. Just interesting timing. Lakers also off the board today. Vegas usually knows so it’s fun speculation

Well, there is definitely smoke out there with Giannis and the Wolves. I think TC is under pressure to do something big. We aren't winning a title as is, or even getting back to a conference final. The thing about Giannis is he would take away the need for a point guard. He would take some of the pressure off Ant to always initiate the offense. To me the question is can we swing a huge deal like this without giving up Jaden.

I don't think there's any way this happens without both Jaden and Ju in the deal, plus picks. We aren't going to include Ant, and I don't see anyone else the Bucks might be interested in. I would be intrigued by that deal, but I don't think I would do it.

This probably won't be well received here, but seeing how well we have played without Ant, I would be in favor of a true blockbuster: Ant and Conley for Giannis. I get that Ant is much younger, but I've moved into the camp that I don't see us ever competing for a chip with him as our leader. Giannis is an on/off monster...+20 this year and positive every year of his career...while Ant is a -3.9 this year and barely breakeven for his career. If the Bucks are moving on from Giannis, a deal with Ant in it would likely be as good as they could get. And we could compete with a starting line of Rudy, Ju, Jaden, Giannis, and Donte, with Naz and the youngsters coming off the bench.

Ant hasn't even sniffed his prime yet, so to me that would be way selling short on Ant. Ant has been a playoff monster as well (he takes off regular season games in a sense of effort no doubt, we all see it). Giannis not as much playoff success in the last few years and he's on the decline. Not saying I wouldn't want Giannis, however his best basketball is behind him, while Ants is still to come!

I also don't see how Rudy and Giannis can be fully effective on offense. Neither shoots the three (not well and not at all) and both need 4 three point shooters around them to utilize their lack of shooting.

In two years when Ant has taken two more leaps and GIannis is two years older who would you want? It's not even close for me. Right now, OK GIannis might have the edge (if healthy and thats been a concern as well with his history and age). But that isn't lasting long.

[rapsuperstar31]

Ya it might be absolutely nothing. Just interesting timing. Lakers also off the board today. Vegas usually knows so it’s fun speculation

Well, there is definitely smoke out there with Giannis and the Wolves. I think TC is under pressure to do something big. We aren't winning a title as is, or even getting back to a conference final. The thing about Giannis is he would take away the need for a point guard. He would take some of the pressure off Ant to always initiate the offense. To me the question is can we swing a huge deal like this without giving up Jaden.

I don't think there's any way this happens without both Jaden and Ju in the deal, plus picks. We aren't going to include Ant, and I don't see anyone else the Bucks might be interested in. I would be intrigued by that deal, but I don't think I would do it.

This probably won't be well received here, but seeing how well we have played without Ant, I would be in favor of a true blockbuster: Ant and Conley for Giannis. I get that Ant is much younger, but I've moved into the camp that I don't see us ever competing for a chip with him as our leader. Giannis is an on/off monster...+20 this year and positive every year of his career...while Ant is a -3.9 this year and barely breakeven for his career. If the Bucks are moving on from Giannis, a deal with Ant in it would likely be as good as they could get. And we could compete with a starting line of Rudy, Ju, Jaden, Giannis, and Donte, with Naz and the youngsters coming off the bench.

Knock it off with seeing how well we have played without Ant to a shitty Kings team and a Golden State team that just lost yesterday to a Portland team without Jru that lost to New Orleans the previous game by 23 on a night Curry hit 12 threes. A two game sample size is nothing. Do you know what is a pretty significant sample size? The Wolves making it out of the first round of the playoffs once in 34 seasons before Ant got here.

[Phenom]

It was also said by the masses that Ant can't be a good shooter, can't be an efficient scorer and doesn't care about basketball. Dion Waiters, eat your heart out.

Someone should tell Ant he can't lead an uptempo offense, next.

[FNG]

Well, there is definitely smoke out there with Giannis and the Wolves. I think TC is under pressure to do something big. We aren't winning a title as is, or even getting back to a conference final. The thing about Giannis is he would take away the need for a point guard. He would take some of the pressure off Ant to always initiate the offense. To me the question is can we swing a huge deal like this without giving up Jaden.

I don't think there's any way this happens without both Jaden and Ju in the deal, plus picks. We aren't going to include Ant, and I don't see anyone else the Bucks might be interested in. I would be intrigued by that deal, but I don't think I would do it.

This probably won't be well received here, but seeing how well we have played without Ant, I would be in favor of a true blockbuster: Ant and Conley for Giannis. I get that Ant is much younger, but I've moved into the camp that I don't see us ever competing for a chip with him as our leader. Giannis is an on/off monster...+20 this year and positive every year of his career...while Ant is a -3.9 this year and barely breakeven for his career. If the Bucks are moving on from Giannis, a deal with Ant in it would likely be as good as they could get. And we could compete with a starting line of Rudy, Ju, Jaden, Giannis, and Donte, with Naz and the youngsters coming off the bench.

Knock it off with seeing how well we have played without Ant to a shitty Kings team and a Golden State team that just lost yesterday to a Portland team without Jru that lost to New Orleans the previous game by 23 on a night Curry hit 12 threes. A two game sample size is nothing. Do you know what is a pretty significant sample size? The Wolves making it out of the first round of the playoffs once in 34 seasons before Ant got here.

Rap. I'm not taking that much from the two wins over the Warriors and the Kings, even though the Warriors were favored by 4 1/2. I am taking something though from the fact that the Wolves covered the spread in both games (i.e. exceeded expectations). When I saw that Draymond was out, I laid a big bet on the Wolves to cover, because the Wolves can survive Ant missing a game easier than the Warriors can survive Draymond missing a game, because Draymond is a guy who consistently makes everyone around him better at both ends of the court. Like Giannis, he consistently has a strong on/off stat...he's +8.4 this season compared to Ant's -3.9. Ant supporters tie themselves up in knots trying to justify why the Wolves do better when he is off the court than on by saying it's because of the mix of players he's on the court with, but the guys he plays the most minutes with are our 4 best on/off guys (Donte, Rudy, Jaden and Ju)...they actually prop up his on/off! The players I think are winners are guys who consistently rank high in on/off. For instance this season, here are the on/offs for key players on their teams:

Giannis: +20
Joker: +17.7
Markkennen: +16.2
Wemby: +12.9
Luka: +9
Draymond: +8.4
Brunson: 7.1
Booker: +5.9
SGA: +5.5

When one of these guys is out, I look to make a bet on the other team if I think Vegas hasn't adjusted the line enough, and it's been a good strategy for me. But as much as I admire Ant's talent, he doesn't have the same positive impact as the guys above. He's more like these high scorers:

Trae: -11
Ja: -6.2
LaVine: -5.4
Ant: -3.9

Despite their elite scoring, their teams tend to do just fine or even better when they miss a game. We need Ant to move into the other group if we're going to challenge for a championship, but he's still a negative player mostly because of his defensive indifference. I'm sure we all noticed a huge difference in how much more aggressive and better our defense looked against the Warriors and the Kings, even if our offense without Ant looked pretty bad in the first half last night.

I get that trading Ant for Giannis might not be the best long-term move because Ant is 7 years younger. But I would argue our chances of competing for a championship the next 3 years would skyrocket with that trade. Maybe others think moving Jaden and Ju is a better move than moving Ant, but I don't. Unfortunately it's the trade that is being rumored and that TC is more likely to make.

[Coolbreeze44]

I don't think there's any way this happens without both Jaden and Ju in the deal, plus picks. We aren't going to include Ant, and I don't see anyone else the Bucks might be interested in. I would be intrigued by that deal, but I don't think I would do it.

This probably won't be well received here, but seeing how well we have played without Ant, I would be in favor of a true blockbuster: Ant and Conley for Giannis. I get that Ant is much younger, but I've moved into the camp that I don't see us ever competing for a chip with him as our leader. Giannis is an on/off monster...+20 this year and positive every year of his career...while Ant is a -3.9 this year and barely breakeven for his career. If the Bucks are moving on from Giannis, a deal with Ant in it would likely be as good as they could get. And we could compete with a starting line of Rudy, Ju, Jaden, Giannis, and Donte, with Naz and the youngsters coming off the bench.

Knock it off with seeing how well we have played without Ant to a shitty Kings team and a Golden State team that just lost yesterday to a Portland team without Jru that lost to New Orleans the previous game by 23 on a night Curry hit 12 threes. A two game sample size is nothing. Do you know what is a pretty significant sample size? The Wolves making it out of the first round of the playoffs once in 34 seasons before Ant got here.

Rap. I'm not taking that much from the two wins over the Warriors and the Kings, even though the Warriors were favored by 4 1/2. I am taking something though from the fact that the Wolves covered the spread in both games (i.e. exceeded expectations). When I saw that Draymond was out, I laid a big bet on the Wolves to cover, because the Wolves can survive Ant missing a game easier than the Warriors can survive Draymond missing a game, because Draymond is a guy who consistently makes everyone around him better at both ends of the court. Like Giannis, he consistently has a strong on/off stat...he's +8.4 this season compared to Ant's -3.9. Ant supporters tie themselves up in knots trying to justify why the Wolves do better when he is off the court than on by saying it's because of the mix of players he's on the court with, but the guys he plays the most minutes with are our 4 best on/off guys (Donte, Rudy, Jaden and Ju)...they actually prop up his on/off! The players I think are winners are guys who consistently rank high in on/off. For instance this season, here are the on/offs for key players on their teams:

Giannis: +20
Joker: +17.7
Markkennen: +16.2
Wemby: +12.9
Luka: +9
Draymond: +8.4
Brunson: 7.1
Booker: +5.9
SGA: +5.5

When one of these guys is out, I look to make a bet on the other team if I think Vegas hasn't adjusted the line enough, and it's been a good strategy for me. But as much as I admire Ant's talent, he doesn't have the same positive impact as the guys above. He's more like these high scorers:

Trae: -11
Ja: -6.2
LaVine: -5.4
Ant: -3.9

Despite their elite scoring, their teams tend to do just fine or even better when they miss a game. We need Ant to move into the other group if we're going to challenge for a championship, but he's still a negative player mostly because of his defensive indifference. I'm sure we all noticed a huge difference in how much more aggressive and better our defense looked against the Warriors and the Kings, even if our offense without Ant looked pretty bad in the first half last night.

I get that trading Ant for Giannis might not be the best long-term move because Ant is 7 years younger. But I would argue our chances of competing for a championship the next 3 years would skyrocket with that trade. Maybe others think moving Jaden and Ju is a better move than moving Ant, but I don't. Unfortunately it's the trade that is being rumored and that TC is more likely to make.

FNG, great post and you laid out the argument very well. Fanboys always get attached to the young star, thinking it's always going to get better and result in a championship. The fact is that hardly ever happens. There are legitimate reasons against Ant ever leading us to a title, some of which you laid out in your post.

So, you've heard the rumor is Jaden and Ju? I'll take Giannis any way i can get him, but I'd much rather just give up Ant than those two players. I know Giannis can win a championship, and he would have a better supporting cast than he did in Milwaukee when they won.

[Lipoli390]

Knock it off with seeing how well we have played without Ant to a shitty Kings team and a Golden State team that just lost yesterday to a Portland team without Jru that lost to New Orleans the previous game by 23 on a night Curry hit 12 threes. A two game sample size is nothing. Do you know what is a pretty significant sample size? The Wolves making it out of the first round of the playoffs once in 34 seasons before Ant got here.

Rap. I'm not taking that much from the two wins over the Warriors and the Kings, even though the Warriors were favored by 4 1/2. I am taking something though from the fact that the Wolves covered the spread in both games (i.e. exceeded expectations). When I saw that Draymond was out, I laid a big bet on the Wolves to cover, because the Wolves can survive Ant missing a game easier than the Warriors can survive Draymond missing a game, because Draymond is a guy who consistently makes everyone around him better at both ends of the court. Like Giannis, he consistently has a strong on/off stat...he's +8.4 this season compared to Ant's -3.9. Ant supporters tie themselves up in knots trying to justify why the Wolves do better when he is off the court than on by saying it's because of the mix of players he's on the court with, but the guys he plays the most minutes with are our 4 best on/off guys (Donte, Rudy, Jaden and Ju)...they actually prop up his on/off! The players I think are winners are guys who consistently rank high in on/off. For instance this season, here are the on/offs for key players on their teams:

Giannis: +20
Joker: +17.7
Markkennen: +16.2
Wemby: +12.9
Luka: +9
Draymond: +8.4
Brunson: 7.1
Booker: +5.9
SGA: +5.5

When one of these guys is out, I look to make a bet on the other team if I think Vegas hasn't adjusted the line enough, and it's been a good strategy for me. But as much as I admire Ant's talent, he doesn't have the same positive impact as the guys above. He's more like these high scorers:

Trae: -11
Ja: -6.2
LaVine: -5.4
Ant: -3.9

Despite their elite scoring, their teams tend to do just fine or even better when they miss a game. We need Ant to move into the other group if we're going to challenge for a championship, but he's still a negative player mostly because of his defensive indifference. I'm sure we all noticed a huge difference in how much more aggressive and better our defense looked against the Warriors and the Kings, even if our offense without Ant looked pretty bad in the first half last night.

I get that trading Ant for Giannis might not be the best long-term move because Ant is 7 years younger. But I would argue our chances of competing for a championship the next 3 years would skyrocket with that trade. Maybe others think moving Jaden and Ju is a better move than moving Ant, but I don't. Unfortunately it's the trade that is being rumored and that TC is more likely to make.

FNG, great post and you laid out the argument very well. Fanboys always get attached to the young star, thinking it's always going to get better and result in a championship. The fact is that hardly ever happens. There are legitimate reasons against Ant ever leading us to a title, some of which you laid out in your post.

So, you've heard the rumor is Jaden and Ju? I'll take Giannis any way i can get him, but I'd much rather just give up Ant than those two players. I know Giannis can win a championship, and he would have a better supporting cast than he did in Milwaukee when they won.

I’d hate to trade Ant for anyone, including Giannis. Ant’s talent and charisma are an enormous and critical combo for a franchise like ours. On the other hand, it’s hard to dispute the numbers that FNG posted. Ant isn’t where he needs to be for this team to be a true championship contender. But he’s still only 24 years old and that’s why, even though I love Giannis and know he’s a championship superstar, I’d prefer to stay the course with Ant and hope he takes that next step. Our lack of draft capital means we’ll be stuck in a rut for a long time if we give up a lot for an older vet to win now. I see the argument for swapping Ant for a star like Giannis but I’m not there.

We’re 2.5 games out of 2nd place in the West and we’ve won two in a row without Conley or Ant. We’ve seen signs of what Dilly and Bones can do for us if they get some meaningful minutes. I’d stay the course even if the Bucks offer a Giannis for Ant swap.

[Coolbreeze44]

Rap. I'm not taking that much from the two wins over the Warriors and the Kings, even though the Warriors were favored by 4 1/2. I am taking something though from the fact that the Wolves covered the spread in both games (i.e. exceeded expectations). When I saw that Draymond was out, I laid a big bet on the Wolves to cover, because the Wolves can survive Ant missing a game easier than the Warriors can survive Draymond missing a game, because Draymond is a guy who consistently makes everyone around him better at both ends of the court. Like Giannis, he consistently has a strong on/off stat...he's +8.4 this season compared to Ant's -3.9. Ant supporters tie themselves up in knots trying to justify why the Wolves do better when he is off the court than on by saying it's because of the mix of players he's on the court with, but the guys he plays the most minutes with are our 4 best on/off guys (Donte, Rudy, Jaden and Ju)...they actually prop up his on/off! The players I think are winners are guys who consistently rank high in on/off. For instance this season, here are the on/offs for key players on their teams:

Giannis: +20
Joker: +17.7
Markkennen: +16.2
Wemby: +12.9
Luka: +9
Draymond: +8.4
Brunson: 7.1
Booker: +5.9
SGA: +5.5

When one of these guys is out, I look to make a bet on the other team if I think Vegas hasn't adjusted the line enough, and it's been a good strategy for me. But as much as I admire Ant's talent, he doesn't have the same positive impact as the guys above. He's more like these high scorers:

Trae: -11
Ja: -6.2
LaVine: -5.4
Ant: -3.9

Despite their elite scoring, their teams tend to do just fine or even better when they miss a game. We need Ant to move into the other group if we're going to challenge for a championship, but he's still a negative player mostly because of his defensive indifference. I'm sure we all noticed a huge difference in how much more aggressive and better our defense looked against the Warriors and the Kings, even if our offense without Ant looked pretty bad in the first half last night.

I get that trading Ant for Giannis might not be the best long-term move because Ant is 7 years younger. But I would argue our chances of competing for a championship the next 3 years would skyrocket with that trade. Maybe others think moving Jaden and Ju is a better move than moving Ant, but I don't. Unfortunately it's the trade that is being rumored and that TC is more likely to make.

FNG, great post and you laid out the argument very well. Fanboys always get attached to the young star, thinking it's always going to get better and result in a championship. The fact is that hardly ever happens. There are legitimate reasons against Ant ever leading us to a title, some of which you laid out in your post.

So, you've heard the rumor is Jaden and Ju? I'll take Giannis any way i can get him, but I'd much rather just give up Ant than those two players. I know Giannis can win a championship, and he would have a better supporting cast than he did in Milwaukee when they won.

I’d hate to trade Ant for anyone, including Giannis. Ant’s talent and charisma are an enormous and critical combo for a franchise like ours. On the other hand, it’s hard to dispute the numbers that FNG posted. Ant isn’t where he needs to be for this team to be a true championship contender. That’s why, even though I love Giannis and know he’s a championship superstar, I’d prefer to stay the course with Ant and hope he takes that next step. Our lack of draft capital means we’ll be stuck in a rut for a long time if we give up a lot for an older vet to win now. I see the argument for swapping Ant for a star like Giannis but I’m not there.

We’re 2.5 games out of 2nd place in the West and we’ve won two in a row without Conley or Ant. We’ve seen signs of what Dilly and Bones can do for us if they get some meaningful minutes. I’d stay the course even if the Bucks offer a Giannis for Ant swap.

I get what you're saying Lip, but you are our resident "let's hold onto guys longer than we should" guy. I mean we can go back to Culver, Minott, and now Dillingham. I get that Ant is a star as opposed to those guys, but Giannis is a true superstar who would put us right in the conversation of true contender. Ant most likely will not be the best player on a championship team, but he has a chance. However, it's time for this franchise to push our chips into the middle. Julius and Jaden are having career years and we've got pretty decent depth. I want to see us go for it.

[FNG]

FNG, great post and you laid out the argument very well. Fanboys always get attached to the young star, thinking it's always going to get better and result in a championship. The fact is that hardly ever happens. There are legitimate reasons against Ant ever leading us to a title, some of which you laid out in your post.

So, you've heard the rumor is Jaden and Ju? I'll take Giannis any way i can get him, but I'd much rather just give up Ant than those two players. I know Giannis can win a championship, and he would have a better supporting cast than he did in Milwaukee when they won.

I’d hate to trade Ant for anyone, including Giannis. Ant’s talent and charisma are an enormous and critical combo for a franchise like ours. On the other hand, it’s hard to dispute the numbers that FNG posted. Ant isn’t where he needs to be for this team to be a true championship contender. That’s why, even though I love Giannis and know he’s a championship superstar, I’d prefer to stay the course with Ant and hope he takes that next step. Our lack of draft capital means we’ll be stuck in a rut for a long time if we give up a lot for an older vet to win now. I see the argument for swapping Ant for a star like Giannis but I’m not there.

We’re 2.5 games out of 2nd place in the West and we’ve won two in a row without Conley or Ant. We’ve seen signs of what Dilly and Bones can do for us if they get some meaningful minutes. I’d stay the course even if the Bucks offer a Giannis for Ant swap.

I get what you're saying Lip, but you are our resident "let's hold onto guys longer than we should" guy. I mean we can go back to Culver, Minott, and now Dillingham. I get that Ant is a star as opposed to those guys, but Giannis is a true superstar who would put us right in the conversation of true contender. Ant most likely will not be the best player on a championship team, but he has a chance. However, it's time for this franchise to push our chips into the middle. Julius and Jaden are having career years and we've got pretty decent depth. I want to see us go for it.

Cool, yes...the rumor I'm seeing is Jaden, Ju, and draft capital. But who knows if there's any validity...it may be just that the numbers match and the Bucks would get two starters. I wouldn't be totally surprised if we learned TC has offered that, but I assume the Bucks would be asking for Ant. I don't think TC would do that for the reasons Lip cites...Ant is enormously talented and charismatic. And seven years younger than Giannis. If I had some confidence that Ant will ever be a consistently positive contributor like the nine guys I list above, I wouldn't consider moving him either. But I just don't know that he is ever going to care enough on the defensive end to join that group.