Wolves fan commiserate here!
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https://forum.midwestvolleyball.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=28706
khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
TheGrey08 wrote:khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
oof and now they are planning for him to be on the team to start the season. I sure hope teams stop screwing around and make a decent offer sooner than later..
khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
Camden wrote:khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
1. That offer obviously isn't enough -- far from it, actually. Is Bam Adebayo really that good that Pat Riley is willing to lose out on Jimmy Butler over him? I highly doubt it. The whole franchise -- from Riley to Spoelstra to Wade and the fan base -- is basically expecting this deal to get done at some point. Adebayo is solid, but he's not an untouchable piece.
2. It won't be Miami's last offer. Shaquille O'Neal isn't walking through that door. LeBron James isn't walking through that door. Chris Bosh definitely isn't walking through that door. Riley's only chance -- based on the perception of available star players and a realistic view of their assets -- at a major addition to the roster this season AND the foreseeable future is this Butler trade.
monsterpile wrote:TheGrey08 wrote:khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
oof and now they are planning for him to be on the team to start the season. I sure hope teams stop screwing around and make a decent offer sooner than later..
This is a tweet from a salary cap guru that covers the Heat. He is very good at the numbers and this seems pretty logical to me. *** my thoughts will follow
https://twitter.com/albertnahmad/status/1049791678905757696?s=21
"I'd guess the Heat offer for Jimmy Butler that the Wolves declined included not just Josh Richardson and a protected first-round pick, but also Dion Waiters (3/$36M+) to salary match, who I'd guess Wolves didn't want and therefore needed a third team (e.g., Kings) to swallow."
***This deal sounds ok getting Richardson and a 1st but...if you see Waiters as basically dead weight that means you are now basically paying Josh Richardson over 20 million bucks when you combine his salary and Waiters plus take up 2 roster spots and a getting a pick in the 20's....while also having to worry about Luxury tax problems in a year. It's not too hard to see why the Wolves turn that down both basketball wise and from ownership standpoint. So having Withers in this deal basically takes away the value contract of Richardson. I think Waiters could still have some use in the right situation but I don't think that's with the Wolves at this point.
crazy-canuck wrote:monsterpile wrote:TheGrey08 wrote:khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
oof and now they are planning for him to be on the team to start the season. I sure hope teams stop screwing around and make a decent offer sooner than later..
This is a tweet from a salary cap guru that covers the Heat. He is very good at the numbers and this seems pretty logical to me. *** my thoughts will follow
https://twitter.com/albertnahmad/status/1049791678905757696?s=21
"I'd guess the Heat offer for Jimmy Butler that the Wolves declined included not just Josh Richardson and a protected first-round pick, but also Dion Waiters (3/$36M+) to salary match, who I'd guess Wolves didn't want and therefore needed a third team (e.g., Kings) to swallow."
***This deal sounds ok getting Richardson and a 1st but...if you see Waiters as basically dead weight that means you are now basically paying Josh Richardson over 20 million bucks when you combine his salary and Waiters plus take up 2 roster spots and a getting a pick in the 20's....while also having to worry about Luxury tax problems in a year. It's not too hard to see why the Wolves turn that down both basketball wise and from ownership standpoint. So having Withers in this deal basically takes away the value contract of Richardson. I think Waiters could still have some use in the right situation but I don't think that's with the Wolves at this point.
Yeah, the filler was either going to be olynyk or waiters.
But since the media is only reporting Richardson, 1st, and "filler", that filler has to be dion. Olynyk isnt a bad player. So, if it was olynyk, he'd have been mentioned.
Waiters, on the other hand is a scrub. So, it benefits miami to not mention him while throwing more shade at the minnesota front office.
This has another miami leak written all over it.
monsterpile wrote:crazy-canuck wrote:monsterpile wrote:TheGrey08 wrote:khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
oof and now they are planning for him to be on the team to start the season. I sure hope teams stop screwing around and make a decent offer sooner than later..
This is a tweet from a salary cap guru that covers the Heat. He is very good at the numbers and this seems pretty logical to me. *** my thoughts will follow
https://twitter.com/albertnahmad/status/1049791678905757696?s=21
"I'd guess the Heat offer for Jimmy Butler that the Wolves declined included not just Josh Richardson and a protected first-round pick, but also Dion Waiters (3/$36M+) to salary match, who I'd guess Wolves didn't want and therefore needed a third team (e.g., Kings) to swallow."
***This deal sounds ok getting Richardson and a 1st but...if you see Waiters as basically dead weight that means you are now basically paying Josh Richardson over 20 million bucks when you combine his salary and Waiters plus take up 2 roster spots and a getting a pick in the 20's....while also having to worry about Luxury tax problems in a year. It's not too hard to see why the Wolves turn that down both basketball wise and from ownership standpoint. So having Withers in this deal basically takes away the value contract of Richardson. I think Waiters could still have some use in the right situation but I don't think that's with the Wolves at this point.
Yeah, the filler was either going to be olynyk or waiters.
But since the media is only reporting Richardson, 1st, and "filler", that filler has to be dion. Olynyk isnt a bad player. So, if it was olynyk, he'd have been mentioned.
Waiters, on the other hand is a scrub. So, it benefits miami to not mention him while throwing more shade at the minnesota front office.
This has another miami leak written all over it.
I've seen some fairly credible people suggesting. That Miami Would or should value Olynyk. I'd imagine the Wolves wouldn't value him enough to want him back in the deal since he might be on a decent contract they wouldn't really love to pay him. Waiters makes the most sense. The more I look at the trade the more it's just not a good deal for the Wolves. Furthermore I admit the willingness to do an Eric Gordon and Tucker deal was flawed as well because of the added salary those players would add for next season. Either way it likely means worrying about the lux tax is there and if so that means no cap space and maybe not even able to use an exemption. Even letting Butler walk for nothing you can at least use the mid-level exemption and the BAE to add someone. There will be lots of money available but there will also be players that aren't going to get paid a lot. With the mid-level you could probably sign a Winslow level young player. Sure you miss out on a 1st round pick but it's not worth it when you have to be paying for years.
One way you can look at this deal is Butler straight up for Richardson which considering Richardson's contract I think I would do if it was possible. That's a heck of a lot better than nothing. Then you have taking on Waiters for a 1st round pick. That's over 30 million of salary for a 1st round pick. HELL NO. Even if you wanted to say it was just the 2 years after this one since we would have been paying Butler...holy bleep I just looked it up that's actually almost 25 million for the final 2 years for Waiters. That's a terrible deal. There will be people ripping Thibs AND Glen for not accepting this deal (or any deal lol) but it's not a good deal. Pat Riley screwed himself into this situation with all these contracts we are here to bail him out of at least one of them.
lipoli390 wrote:monsterpile wrote:crazy-canuck wrote:monsterpile wrote:TheGrey08 wrote:khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
oof and now they are planning for him to be on the team to start the season. I sure hope teams stop screwing around and make a decent offer sooner than later..
This is a tweet from a salary cap guru that covers the Heat. He is very good at the numbers and this seems pretty logical to me. *** my thoughts will follow
https://twitter.com/albertnahmad/status/1049791678905757696?s=21
"I'd guess the Heat offer for Jimmy Butler that the Wolves declined included not just Josh Richardson and a protected first-round pick, but also Dion Waiters (3/$36M+) to salary match, who I'd guess Wolves didn't want and therefore needed a third team (e.g., Kings) to swallow."
***This deal sounds ok getting Richardson and a 1st but...if you see Waiters as basically dead weight that means you are now basically paying Josh Richardson over 20 million bucks when you combine his salary and Waiters plus take up 2 roster spots and a getting a pick in the 20's....while also having to worry about Luxury tax problems in a year. It's not too hard to see why the Wolves turn that down both basketball wise and from ownership standpoint. So having Withers in this deal basically takes away the value contract of Richardson. I think Waiters could still have some use in the right situation but I don't think that's with the Wolves at this point.
Yeah, the filler was either going to be olynyk or waiters.
But since the media is only reporting Richardson, 1st, and "filler", that filler has to be dion. Olynyk isnt a bad player. So, if it was olynyk, he'd have been mentioned.
Waiters, on the other hand is a scrub. So, it benefits miami to not mention him while throwing more shade at the minnesota front office.
This has another miami leak written all over it.
I've seen some fairly credible people suggesting. That Miami Would or should value Olynyk. I'd imagine the Wolves wouldn't value him enough to want him back in the deal since he might be on a decent contract they wouldn't really love to pay him. Waiters makes the most sense. The more I look at the trade the more it's just not a good deal for the Wolves. Furthermore I admit the willingness to do an Eric Gordon and Tucker deal was flawed as well because of the added salary those players would add for next season. Either way it likely means worrying about the lux tax is there and if so that means no cap space and maybe not even able to use an exemption. Even letting Butler walk for nothing you can at least use the mid-level exemption and the BAE to add someone. There will be lots of money available but there will also be players that aren't going to get paid a lot. With the mid-level you could probably sign a Winslow level young player. Sure you miss out on a 1st round pick but it's not worth it when you have to be paying for years.
One way you can look at this deal is Butler straight up for Richardson which considering Richardson's contract I think I would do if it was possible. That's a heck of a lot better than nothing. Then you have taking on Waiters for a 1st round pick. That's over 30 million of salary for a 1st round pick. HELL NO. Even if you wanted to say it was just the 2 years after this one since we would have been paying Butler...holy bleep I just looked it up that's actually almost 25 million for the final 2 years for Waiters. That's a terrible deal. There will be people ripping Thibs AND Glen for not accepting this deal (or any deal lol) but it's not a good deal. Pat Riley screwed himself into this situation with all these contracts we are here to bail him out of at least one of them.
Monster -- As you know, I've never been reluctant to rip Thibodeau. But if that really was the offer the Wolves turned down, then Thibs gets nothing but praise from me. That's Pat Riley being a prick. I might consider taking Waiters if we get both Adebayo and Miami's 1st, but otherwise, not a chance. Riley needs Butler. He has absolutely no cap room and doesn't have contracts he can move to create room. He'll have only one draft pick next June -- likely a 1st round pick in the 15-20 range -- and no first round pick the following year. He's not in a position to build around Adebayo. His best chance is to convert Adebayo into a player who can move the needle in a time frame that works with Dragic.
monsterpile wrote:lipoli390 wrote:monsterpile wrote:crazy-canuck wrote:monsterpile wrote:TheGrey08 wrote:khans2k5 wrote:J Rich and a first with filler was their final offer.
oof and now they are planning for him to be on the team to start the season. I sure hope teams stop screwing around and make a decent offer sooner than later..
This is a tweet from a salary cap guru that covers the Heat. He is very good at the numbers and this seems pretty logical to me. *** my thoughts will follow
https://twitter.com/albertnahmad/status/1049791678905757696?s=21
"I'd guess the Heat offer for Jimmy Butler that the Wolves declined included not just Josh Richardson and a protected first-round pick, but also Dion Waiters (3/$36M+) to salary match, who I'd guess Wolves didn't want and therefore needed a third team (e.g., Kings) to swallow."
***This deal sounds ok getting Richardson and a 1st but...if you see Waiters as basically dead weight that means you are now basically paying Josh Richardson over 20 million bucks when you combine his salary and Waiters plus take up 2 roster spots and a getting a pick in the 20's....while also having to worry about Luxury tax problems in a year. It's not too hard to see why the Wolves turn that down both basketball wise and from ownership standpoint. So having Withers in this deal basically takes away the value contract of Richardson. I think Waiters could still have some use in the right situation but I don't think that's with the Wolves at this point.
Yeah, the filler was either going to be olynyk or waiters.
But since the media is only reporting Richardson, 1st, and "filler", that filler has to be dion. Olynyk isnt a bad player. So, if it was olynyk, he'd have been mentioned.
Waiters, on the other hand is a scrub. So, it benefits miami to not mention him while throwing more shade at the minnesota front office.
This has another miami leak written all over it.
I've seen some fairly credible people suggesting. That Miami Would or should value Olynyk. I'd imagine the Wolves wouldn't value him enough to want him back in the deal since he might be on a decent contract they wouldn't really love to pay him. Waiters makes the most sense. The more I look at the trade the more it's just not a good deal for the Wolves. Furthermore I admit the willingness to do an Eric Gordon and Tucker deal was flawed as well because of the added salary those players would add for next season. Either way it likely means worrying about the lux tax is there and if so that means no cap space and maybe not even able to use an exemption. Even letting Butler walk for nothing you can at least use the mid-level exemption and the BAE to add someone. There will be lots of money available but there will also be players that aren't going to get paid a lot. With the mid-level you could probably sign a Winslow level young player. Sure you miss out on a 1st round pick but it's not worth it when you have to be paying for years.
One way you can look at this deal is Butler straight up for Richardson which considering Richardson's contract I think I would do if it was possible. That's a heck of a lot better than nothing. Then you have taking on Waiters for a 1st round pick. That's over 30 million of salary for a 1st round pick. HELL NO. Even if you wanted to say it was just the 2 years after this one since we would have been paying Butler...holy bleep I just looked it up that's actually almost 25 million for the final 2 years for Waiters. That's a terrible deal. There will be people ripping Thibs AND Glen for not accepting this deal (or any deal lol) but it's not a good deal. Pat Riley screwed himself into this situation with all these contracts we are here to bail him out of at least one of them.
Monster -- As you know, I've never been reluctant to rip Thibodeau. But if that really was the offer the Wolves turned down, then Thibs gets nothing but praise from me. That's Pat Riley being a prick. I might consider taking Waiters if we get both Adebayo and Miami's 1st, but otherwise, not a chance. Riley needs Butler. He has absolutely no cap room and doesn't have contracts he can move to create room. He'll have only one draft pick next June -- likely a 1st round pick in the 15-20 range -- and no first round pick the following year. He's not in a position to build around Adebayo. His best chance is to convert Adebayo into a player who can move the needle in a time frame that works with Dragic.
Good post.
I'll say this about Pat Riley and Miami...IF they really Valued Richardson and Bam for their young core and saw them as legit building blocks and didn't want to give them up for Butler...fine. As Wolves fans who saw some young players shipped out for Bulter a few months ago we can get that. However as you have strongly stated Riley seems likely to want Butler pretty badly. All the reporting says Miami has been aggressive in going after him. One report said Spolstra wants Butler. Its not hard to think Riley wants Bulter quite a bit and there seems to be traction there. It seems like Riley is willing to make a deal. If that's the case they are willing to put some reasonable assets towards making the deal. Richardson I am guessing has been available for a while its just the Wolves aren't leaking it and Miami would not want to because I'm sure they don't want Richardson to think he was offered in a trade if this doesn't work out.
I looked up the trade kicker and it looks like it counts as salary and I do not think the ESPN trade machine has counted for that. The team that trades the player pays the salary but the higher salary counts both for the trade and the new team's salary situation. ESPN trade machine says a Butler, Dieng for Tyler Johnson and Richardson works and that's without adding in the trade kicker. I'd do that and a 1st. That would add some pretty significant amount of money over the tax line for the Heat so that might not be realistic.