Windhorst: Towns and Butler pushing for Irving trade

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, your ode to IT is a good one. There is no question he's been grossly underrated.

However....if you are a team that is dead serious about contending for a title, and Boston is without a doubt one of those franchises, I am convinced that he is not the right guy to have as your lead dog. His small stature eventually gets exposed.

Now if you are Phoenix, Sacramento, etc., etc. (you could add Minnesota to the list) and simply making the playoffs would be a watershed year, then hell yeah, IT would be a terrific player for those teams.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe, your ode to IT is a good one. There is no question he's been grossly underrated.

However....if you are a team that is dead serious about contending for a title, and Boston is without a doubt one of those franchises, I am convinced that he is not the right guy to have as your lead dog. His small stature eventually gets exposed.

Now if you are Phoenix, Sacramento, etc., etc. (you could add Minnesota to the list) and simply making the playoffs would be a watershed year, then hell yeah, IT would be a terrific player for those teams.

I agree. Thomas has simply been the wrong/right guy at the wrong time over and over again. And he was unhide-able on defense. It simply wasn't sustainable for a championship level team.

I expect him to play with an even bigger chip on his shoulder this season if possible. After all, it could nab him more money in one year than in the past 6 seasons.

- There will be 166 players who make more than I. Thomas this season... including Wayne Ellington and Lonzo Ball right above him on the list.
- There are 25 guys who'll make more THIS season than I. Thomas has in his 6-year career combined... including Chandler Parsons, Jrue Holiday, Harrison Barnes, JJ Redick and Otto Porter. Those players have combined for 1/2 as many ASG appearances in their careers as Thomas has made in the past two seasons....

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, your ode to IT is a good one. There is no question he's been grossly underrated.

However....if you are a team that is dead serious about contending for a title, and Boston is without a doubt one of those franchises, I am convinced that he is not the right guy to have as your lead dog. His small stature eventually gets exposed.

Now if you are Phoenix, Sacramento, etc., etc. (you could add Minnesota to the list) and simply making the playoffs would be a watershed year, then hell yeah, IT would be a terrific player for those teams.

I agree. Thomas has simply been the wrong/right guy at the wrong time over and over again. And he was unhide-able on defense. It simply wasn't sustainable for a championship level team.

I expect him to play with an even bigger chip on his shoulder this season if possible. After all, it could nab him more money in one year than in the past 6 seasons.

- There will be 166 players who make more than I. Thomas this season... including Wayne Ellington and Lonzo Ball right above him on the list.
- There are 25 guys who'll make more THIS season than I. Thomas has in his 6-year career combined... including Chandler Parsons, Jrue Holiday, Harrison Barnes, JJ Redick and Otto Porter. Those players have combined for 1/2 as many ASG appearances in their careers as Thomas has made in the past two seasons....

Wow, yes, that is an injustice to the little guy.

[KiwiMatt]

Good write up Abe. IT certainly plays with a chip on his shoulder. Let's just hope that chip on his hip heals up properly.

[Lipoli390]

Good write up Abe. IT certainly plays with a chip on his shoulder. Let's just hope that chip on his hip heals up properly.

I agree, Matt. Abe's write-up is spot on. It's a big IT fan. But I think a lot of folks analyzing the trade are glossing over IT's hip injury. Reading about hip labrum tears on Web MD, I found this ominous passage: "Once torn, the labral tissue doesn't not have the ability to heal on its own...". Nonsurgical treatment efforts are focused on addressing symptoms by maximizing the strength and mobility of the hip to minimizing stress placed on the injured area. In certain cases, patients are able to achieve a satisfactory level of activity without surgery."

That prognosis should scare the XXX out of anyone counting on IT to be the player he's been. The picture gets even more troubling when you look at the career longevity of past small NBA PGs. The Piston's IT retired at age 32. Allen Iverson had his last all-star caliber season at age 32. Tiny Archibald had his last all-star caliber season at age 28. He missed the entire season at age 29 with an Achilles injury and was never anything close to the same player he'd been before the injury in the remaining few years he played, eventually retiring at age 35. The list goes on with Spud Web and Nate Robinson. Small PGs are so dependent on their quickness and athleticism that the slightest drop off in those areas dramatically reduced their effectiveness beyond what you'd see in a bigger player.

If I were Cleveland I'd be very concerned about what I'm going to get this season from the soon-to-be 29 year old IT. If the Cavs were focused on the best PG replacement for Irving, they should have done the reported deal with the Suns for Bledsoe, Miami's 2018 1st round pick top 7 protected and maybe Bender. Apparently, the Suns were unwilling to part with Josh Jackson. I think the the Cavs considered Crowder and the Net's unprotected pick the two keys to the deal. I think they see Crowder as the best asset they could get to shore up their defense against the Warriors. I also think they expect LeBron to leave after this season, which caused them to put a premium on getting what looks like it will be a top 5 draft pick next year. If IT returns to form, I think the Cavs would consider that a welcome bonus.

[Monster]

Good write up Abe. IT certainly plays with a chip on his shoulder. Let's just hope that chip on his hip heals up properly.

I agree, Matt. Abe's write-up is spot on. It's a big IT fan. But I think a lot of folks analyzing the trade are glossing over IT's hip injury. Reading about hip labrum tears on Web MD, I found this ominous passage: "Once torn, the labral tissue doesn't not have the ability to heal on its own...". Nonsurgical treatment efforts are focused on addressing symptoms by maximizing the strength and mobility of the hip to minimizing stress placed on the injured area. In certain cases, patients are able to achieve a satisfactory level of activity without surgery."

That prognosis should scare the XXX out of anyone counting on IT to be the player he's been. The picture gets even more troubling when you look at the career longevity of past small NBA PGs. The Piston's IT retired at age 32. Allen Iverson had his last all-star caliber season at age 32. Tiny Archibald had his last all-star caliber season at age 28. He missed the entire season at age 29 with an Achilles injury and was never anything close to the same player he'd been before the injury in the remaining few years he played, eventually retiring at age 35. The list goes on with Spud Web and Nate Robinson. Small PGs are so dependent on their quickness and athleticism that the slightest drop off in those areas dramatically reduced their effectiveness beyond what you'd see in a bigger player.

If I were Cleveland I'd be very concerned about what I'm going to get this season from the soon-to-be 29 year old IT. If the Cavs were focused on the best PG replacement for Irving, they should have done the reported deal with the Suns for Bledsoe, Miami's 2018 1st round pick top 7 protected and maybe Bender. Apparently, the Suns were unwilling to part with Josh Jackson. I think the the Cavs considered Crowder and the Net's unprotected pick the two keys to the deal. I think they see Crowder as the best asset they could get to shore up their defense against the Warriors. I also think they expect LeBron to leave after this season, which caused them to put a premium on getting what looks like it will be a top 5 draft pick next year. If IT returns to form, I think the Cavs would consider that a welcome bonus.

Thanks for the info Lip. I was wrong and IT does have a torn Labrum. What we don't really know is how significant it is. There just isn't more info to play internet doctor so I won't. :) At this point we are going to have to wait and see. I will say that if he hasn't already had surgery it does seem like it might be somewhat manageable or he would have just had the surgery already.

Supposedly before the rumored Indiana Denver Cavs trade that included Love there was a Suns Indiana Cavs deal involving Irving. Supposedly those rumors were part of what upset Kyrie. In a way I really can't blame him for that and that was with Griffin still in charge.

[Lipoli390]

I've been talking about IT's hip injury since the day the trade was announced. Now we're hearing reports that the deal may be recinded or modified following the Cavs' medical evaluation of IT's hip. Honestly, I have to believe the two teams discussed the hip injury before making the deal. So I don't see the deal being recinded. I suspect they had a contingency built in under which the Celtics would give up something else based on the Cavs' medical evaluation. As I said in my earlier post, I think the Nets pick and Crowder were the keys to the deal from the Cavs perspective. Woj wrote the same in his report on the latest developments following the Cavs medical evaluation.

Prediction: I think the Celtics will add their incoming 2019 Memphis 1st round pick (top 8 protected) and their own 2018 1st round picks to the deal.

[Monster]

I've been talking about IT's hip injury since the day the trade was announced. Now we're hearing reports that the deal may be recinded or modified following the Cavs' medical evaluation of IT's hip. Honestly, I have to believe the two teams discussed the hip injury before making the deal. So I don't see the deal being recinded. I suspect they had a contingency built in under which the Celtics would give up something else based on the Cavs' medical evaluation. As I said in my earlier post, I think the Nets pick and Crowder were the keys to the deal from the Cavs perspective. Woj wrote the same in his report on the latest developments following the Cavs medical evaluation.

Prediction: I think the Celtics will add their incoming 2019 Memphis 1st round pick (top 8 protected) and their own 2018 1st round picks to the deal.

If it's true what a lot of people are saying that Lebron is likely leaving the Cavs after this year anyway getting a damaged goods IT is a good thing for the Cavs future because they can get more assets from the Celtics. I was thinking that 2019 Memphis pick also. Now how much more can the Cavs get? Remember if there is legit concern about IT that makes the Celtics want Kyrie even more. Will any of these smaller assets pay off for the Cavs? Idk but if they end up rebuilding in a few months it's better to have them than not have them. On the Dunc'd on podcast Nate pointed out that the Cavs could actually be below the apron next offseason and there be able to get a little something back in sign and trades which wasn't possible before.

It sounds like the more I have read there isn't really a sure fire treatment for this type of injury. A surgery to repair it isn't a guarantee either. It's a shame hopefully IT can work through it and have a few good years still. He is very skilled even if he loses some quickness I think he can still be an effective offensive player. Not what we have seen obviously but still a guy that could score plenty. Maybe he ends up being a fewer minute guy as a devastating 6th man. We will see.

[Lipoli390]

I've been talking about IT's hip injury since the day the trade was announced. Now we're hearing reports that the deal may be recinded or modified following the Cavs' medical evaluation of IT's hip. Honestly, I have to believe the two teams discussed the hip injury before making the deal. So I don't see the deal being recinded. I suspect they had a contingency built in under which the Celtics would give up something else based on the Cavs' medical evaluation. As I said in my earlier post, I think the Nets pick and Crowder were the keys to the deal from the Cavs perspective. Woj wrote the same in his report on the latest developments following the Cavs medical evaluation.

Prediction: I think the Celtics will add their incoming 2019 Memphis 1st round pick (top 8 protected) and their own 2018 1st round picks to the deal.

If it's true what a lot of people are saying that Lebron is likely leaving the Cavs after this year anyway getting a damaged goods IT is a good thing for the Cavs future because they can get more assets from the Celtics. I was thinking that 2019 Memphis pick also. Now how much more can the Cavs get? Remember if there is legit concern about IT that makes the Celtics want Kyrie even more. Will any of these smaller assets pay off for the Cavs? Idk but if they end up rebuilding in a few months it's better to have them than not have them. On the Dunc'd on podcast Nate pointed out that the Cavs could actually be below the apron next offseason and there be able to get a little something back in sign and trades which wasn't possible before.

It sounds like the more I have read there isn't really a sure fire treatment for this type of injury. A surgery to repair it isn't a guarantee either. It's a shame hopefully IT can work through it and have a few good years still. He is very skilled even if he loses some quickness I think he can still be an effective offensive player. Not what we have seen obviously but still a guy that could score plenty. Maybe he ends up being a fewer minute guy as a devastating 6th man. We will see.

Yes, this sort of injury is highly problematic as we found out with Jonny Flynn. I'm not a doctor, but based on what I've read, I don't know how you can play basketball at the NBA level without surgery since the tear doesn't heal on its own. Yet, as you mentioned, surgery isn't a sure-fire fix either. I can't even see IT as a 6th man if he's limited at all by his labrum tear. He needs his legs as much as his arms for his shot -- for both space to shoot and distance on his shot. I just don't think his skills will be enough to overcome a hip problem at his age and size. If he were at least 6'4, I'd be open the the possibility. But at 5'9 I dont' see it.

I suspect that the Cavs are convinced LeBron is leaving after this season. In fact, I suspect that Dan Gilbert will find LeBron's departure a relief to some extent. So I agree that IT's issues won't sink the deal, especially since IT's hip (as you indicated) has to be a big motivator for the Celtics to stick to the deal. I also think both team discussed contingencies related to IT's hip before the deal was struck. There's no way either team can be surprised by what the Cavs' medical team seems to have uncovered. I see another draft pick or two headed to the Cavs before the dust settles.

[KiwiMatt]

Sounds like the Cavs might veto the trade based on IT's injury concerns. Apparently they're now asking for Jaylen Brown or Tatum to be included. If I'm Boston I tell them to take it or leave it. If they give up anymore they're getting fleeced. At the end of the day the Cavs need to trade Kyrie before training camp or things could turn sour and his value will plummet. Watch this space!