Camden wrote:Wrong again, FNG. My disdain for the notorious plus-minus statistic dates back long before this particular site even existed -- and also long before D'Angelo Russell was even in the league. People on the ESPN forum (where most of us are from) used to cite plus-minus in a way that made Ricky Rubio appear to be a better player than he was while also making Kevin Love appear less-great than he was. It was then that I really grew my dislike of that stat and ones that are similar in construction. Again, they have some value when used with other metrics, but on their own I find them to be nonsensical. And then we move on to players like Kevin Martin, Zach LaVine, and Thaddeus Young (occasionally) who got criticized time and time again primarily because of the almighty plus-minus stat despite the clear positives they brought with their games.
We can agree to disagree on the topic, but that's the history behind it as it pertains to me. It has nothing to do with D-Lo. He's just the player in particular who currently gets most-abused on this board by the misuse of that stat.
I'll take your word for that, Cam, because I don't know anything about the ESPN site...I was (sadly) a rubechat observer (not poster) before wandering over here, and that was painful...I don't miss it. But it sounds like the +/- discussion pre-dates the arrival of DLo.
But I'm still curious about how you statistically evaluate DLo to conclude he is a positive player, or frankly even worth a $12-15 million salary. A few of us here have pointed to several measures (net rating, TS%, on/off, +/-) where DLo (and frankly Wig) are outliers among max players as they both rank in the bottom half of the league by these measures. DLo is the starting PG on my favorite team and both likable and fun to watch at times, so I really want to be confident in his ability to be part of a playoff rotation, but his negative stats seems indisputable to me...and being in his 7th year, it's certainly not a small sample size and the numbers are quite consistently mediocre to bad. But frankly the positive factor I hear you bring up most is his one All-Star appearance. Many of us need a lot more than that to believe in him, so convince us...the mic is yours.
I don't understand why you constantly want to quibble with Camden.
D'Lo is not perfect, but he is a killer. He is not afraid of the big shot. The only other timberwolves that had no fear were Cassell and Sprewell, both were old.
KAT is too passive. Ant is too young and has to figure his role out still. D'Lo is the guy on our team who is not afraid of taking the shot. He is our killer, until Ant eventually takes over.
Not sure KAT is too passive, it's just harder to get him the ball in crunch time because he's a big and not initiating the offense. I agree that it's nice to have two guys in DLO and Edwards that can handle the ball and create space for themselves to get shots off.
Camden wrote:Wrong again, FNG. My disdain for the notorious plus-minus statistic dates back long before this particular site even existed -- and also long before D'Angelo Russell was even in the league. People on the ESPN forum (where most of us are from) used to cite plus-minus in a way that made Ricky Rubio appear to be a better player than he was while also making Kevin Love appear less-great than he was. It was then that I really grew my dislike of that stat and ones that are similar in construction. Again, they have some value when used with other metrics, but on their own I find them to be nonsensical. And then we move on to players like Kevin Martin, Zach LaVine, and Thaddeus Young (occasionally) who got criticized time and time again primarily because of the almighty plus-minus stat despite the clear positives they brought with their games.
We can agree to disagree on the topic, but that's the history behind it as it pertains to me. It has nothing to do with D-Lo. He's just the player in particular who currently gets most-abused on this board by the misuse of that stat.
I'll take your word for that, Cam, because I don't know anything about the ESPN site...I was (sadly) a rubechat observer (not poster) before wandering over here, and that was painful...I don't miss it. But it sounds like the +/- discussion pre-dates the arrival of DLo.
But I'm still curious about how you statistically evaluate DLo to conclude he is a positive player, or frankly even worth a $12-15 million salary. A few of us here have pointed to several measures (net rating, TS%, on/off, +/-) where DLo (and frankly Wig) are outliers among max players as they both rank in the bottom half of the league by these measures. DLo is the starting PG on my favorite team and both likable and fun to watch at times, so I really want to be confident in his ability to be part of a playoff rotation, but his negative stats seems indisputable to me...and being in his 7th year, it's certainly not a small sample size and the numbers are quite consistently mediocre to bad. But frankly the positive factor I hear you bring up most is his one All-Star appearance. Many of us need a lot more than that to believe in him, so convince us...the mic is yours.
I don't understand why you constantly want to quibble with Camden.
D'Lo is not perfect, but he is a killer. He is not afraid of the big shot. The only other timberwolves that had no fear were Cassell and Sprewell, both were old.
KAT is too passive. Ant is too young and has to figure his role out still. D'Lo is the guy on our team who is not afraid of taking the shot. He is our killer, until Ant eventually takes over.
Not sure KAT is too passive, it's just harder to get him the ball in crunch time because he's a big and not initiating the offense. I agree that it's nice to have two guys in DLO and Edwards that can handle the ball and create space for themselves to get shots off.
The league has switched the tune too far. It is painfully obvious that it is a guard/wing league now. I appreciate that we have two finally. Bigs are not allowed to battle in the post anymore. I hope that gets adjusted.
Just watched the game again tonight. Two things stood out that were lost in the discussion of bigger things and the final result.
First, it was Ant's passing in the 1st quarter. It was really good. His passes are generally smart. They have nice velocity and they have laser accuracy. He's going to have his share of triple doubles before his career is over.
Second, it was Beasley's passing late in the third and into the 4th. He said he worked a lot on his passing in the off season and it seems pretty clear that his work has paid off. He showed off his improved passing in previous games so far this season as well. You could also see that his shot is almost back. His corner three and then his quick release three shortly after that in the 3rd looked good.
