Minnesota Sports Forum

Q-was-here wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Jaylen Brown vs. Miami:

24.1 ppg / 7.1 reb / 3 ast / 49% fg / 40% 3fg / 73% ft

He's been an efficient 24 ppg scorer in each of the past two regular seasons... with above average defense.

He should be considered a star by this point.

No doubt, which makes Souhan look a little foolish for grouping Tatum with Doncic and Butler. Neither of those guys have a sidekick like Brown.

Celtics absolutely nailed those two #3 picks in '16 and '17. Tatum seemed to show signs of becoming a star relatively early while Brown has been a slower process. It wasn't until year 4 that he really started to distinguish himself as a top tier NBA wing.

(BTW, Anthony Edwards is ahead of both these guys in terms of comparing second years, so that's a good sign).

I don't think souhan is alone. Brown is often overlooked, or has his contributions diminished or deficiencies highlighted...

For example, I heard about his TOs a ton vs. Miami. Even though he averaged 3.2 per game, it wasn't egregious and had 10 fewer overall than Tatum.

Q-was-here wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Excerpt from Souhan article:

The "three stars'' blueprint for playoff success is no longer valid, nor is the "one dominant player'' model.

The Warriors are loaded with talent, but Klay Thompson is a lesser version of his former self. The other three teams rely on one star -- Jimmy Butler, Jayson Tatum and Luka Doncic -- and a cohesive group of non-stars.

The top four vote-getters in the NBA MVP Award -- Nikola Jokic, Joel Embiid, Giannis Antetokounmpo and Devin Booker -- did not make it to the conference finals. Kevin Durant, LeBron James and James Harden didn't come close.

In today's NBA, coaching, cohesiveness, defense and three-point shooting mean as much as star power.

Mmmmm. I have a few nit picks here, but I kind of agree with his overall conclusion.

First, he's absolutely wrong that Tatum is the Celtics "one star". What about Jaylen Brown!?! Granted, he's a notch below Tatum on the pecking order, but the difference between him and Tatum is a hell of a lot more narrow than the difference between Butler and Adebayo or Doncic and Brunson.

Second, what is a star? I consider Marcus Smart a star. He was the DPOY and can create his own shot in a pinch, as we saw him do multiple times against Miami. Draymond Green is a star too. He is also a perennial DPOY candidate and he is integral to the ball movement offense at Golden State.

But overall I agree with his conclusion and it sort of relates to the DLO thread I started. I think we want to become more reliant on Ant and KAT offensively, while continuing to surround them with defenders, shooters, and high IQ type players.

What Souhan has said here is what I suggested about the playoffs weeks ago. The best TEAM will be the one that might make it to the finals and I thought that was especially going to be true in the East combined with who stayed healthy. The Bucks losing Middleton was a huge loss for them.

I didn't watch enough games to really make this case but has Horford been good enough to be in that Smart/Draymond maybe even Jrue level of player that's not a true star but contributed massively on both ends to winning?

All this team and defense and coaching sounds nice but that could be sort of for this year (and to some extent last season too) there are teams that if they actually get their stats back healthy that could be a problem. The Clippers have a good coach maybe that team thing going for them too. Having said that these star combos are not getting younger. Will any of them be able to stay healthy? What moves this offseason will effect various team's ability to keep competing?

I know the Wolves haven't completely arrived yet but one of the biggest positives of this team this year was it seemed like they actually played like a team overall. It seems like that hasn't been the case since...what maybe the 40-42 Season? It felt like the team was overall playing together towards a common goal not fighting things. That's big step for a franchise that hasn't done that in a long time. Coaching is a big factor there and likely some other players both young and more expedited can take some credit too.

Monster, Horford is pretty close to Green and Smart in terms of his impact on the Celtics playoff run. He has been really good defensively and then he's been able to step put and hit open 3's.

The Celtics have two legit stars in the traditional sense (higher usage scorers) in Tatum and Brown. They have two elite role players in Horford and Smart. And then they have three borderline elite role players in Grant Williams, Derrick White, and Robert Williams. ALL of them can defend. They are the best two-way team I've seen without a Top 5 superstar on the roster (I know Tatum is close).

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Jaylen Brown vs. Miami:

24.1 ppg / 7.1 reb / 3 ast / 49% fg / 40% 3fg / 73% ft

He's been an efficient 24 ppg scorer in each of the past two regular seasons... with above average defense.

He should be considered a star by this point.

No doubt, which makes Souhan look a little foolish for grouping Tatum with Doncic and Butler. Neither of those guys have a sidekick like Brown.

Celtics absolutely nailed those two #3 picks in '16 and '17. Tatum seemed to show signs of becoming a star relatively early while Brown has been a slower process. It wasn't until year 4 that he really started to distinguish himself as a top tier NBA wing.

(BTW, Anthony Edwards is ahead of both these guys in terms of comparing second years, so that's a good sign).

I don't think souhan is alone. Brown is often overlooked, or has his contributions diminished or deficiencies highlighted...

For example, I heard about his TOs a ton vs. Miami. Even though he averaged 3.2 per game, it wasn't egregious and had 10 fewer overall than Tatum.

His TOs happened in bunches which is why I think they were highlighted. Oladipo (who came off the bench and wasn't always guarding Brown) absolutely terrorized him when they were matched up and caused multiple live ball turnovers. I think that says more about Dipo than Brown. They eventually just avoided going one on one against Oladipo and sought out other matchups.

lipoli390 wrote:Excerpt from Souhan article:

The "three stars'' blueprint for playoff success is no longer valid, nor is the "one dominant player'' model.

The Warriors are loaded with talent, but Klay Thompson is a lesser version of his former self. The other three teams rely on one star -- Jimmy Butler, Jayson Tatum and Luka Doncic -- and a cohesive group of non-stars.

The top four vote-getters in the NBA MVP Award -- Nikola Jokic, Joel Embiid, Giannis Antetokounmpo and Devin Booker -- did not make it to the conference finals. Kevin Durant, LeBron James and James Harden didn't come close.

In today's NBA, coaching, cohesiveness, defense and three-point shooting mean as much as star power.

Lip, you are the master of not "stirring the pot"...very admirable! But you left out the second thing that Souhan said Wolves' fans have learned this season...that the verdict is in, and it is indisputable that the Warriors won the Wig/DLo trade. In Jim's words: "...there is just no way to overlook the trade's lopsidedness". I agree. This has been a fun talker the past few years and the board (and I) have moved back and forth on who won the trade, but it's pretty clear we can move on to other topics now.

More importantly, the first thing that Souhan said Wolves fans learned this season should make us all excited- that the new owners are going to "swing for the fences". I think we could have suspected as much based on Lore's background...he's not a cautious man. But the willingness to invest $40 million in Connelly removes all doubt. This is an ownership group that is not going to be content with mediocrity, and has the means to do something about it. Glen always had the means, but his midwestern conservatism was always going to be a barrier to this team challenging for a championship. In contrast Lore/ARod are brash and determined to bring a winner to Minnesota. I think they will not hesitate to pay some luxury tax if they truly believe this team can challenge. I think Wolves' fan can be legitimately excited for the first time since the KG years. Let's go Wolves!

It occurred to me tonight that one of the guys on the roster that fits the mold of rugged players is someone nobody is really expecting to come back Josh Okogie. It's possible in a year or 2 he is out of the league but he hasn't turned 24 yet and while I don't think his shooting will ever come around there is room on an NBA bench for a physical, athletic, play his butt off great attitude guy that can give you something when he is out there (defense) for dirt cheap.

monsterpile wrote:It occurred to me tonight that one of the guys on the roster that fits the mold of rugged players is someone nobody is really expecting to come back Josh Okogie. It's possible in a year or 2 he is out of the league but he hasn't turned 24 yet and while I don't think his shooting will ever come around there is room on an NBA bench for a physical, athletic, play his butt off great attitude guy that can give you something when he is out there (defense) for dirt cheap.

I think Josh Okogie is one of the greatest disappointments for this franchise in the last 5 years, from a pure player personnel perspective. His defense, tenacity, physicality, and overall attitude absolutely checks all the boxes of a role playing playoff-ready defensive wing. But.....that outside shot.

I'm still dismayed and disillusioned at him literally regressing as a shooter from his college days while we witness countless other players in the league that were inferior shooters in college come in and work their way toward having a functional jump shot. He'd be worth at least $12M per year if he hit the corner 3 like PJ Tucker can. It's that one damn shot.

Q-was-here wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It occurred to me tonight that one of the guys on the roster that fits the mold of rugged players is someone nobody is really expecting to come back Josh Okogie. It's possible in a year or 2 he is out of the league but he hasn't turned 24 yet and while I don't think his shooting will ever come around there is room on an NBA bench for a physical, athletic, play his butt off great attitude guy that can give you something when he is out there (defense) for dirt cheap.

I think Josh Okogie is one of the greatest disappointments for this franchise in the last 5 years, from a pure player personnel perspective. His defense, tenacity, physicality, and overall attitude absolutely checks all the boxes of a role playing playoff-ready defensive wing. But.....that outside shot.

I'm still dismayed and disillusioned at him literally regressing as a shooter from his college days while we witness countless other players in the league that were inferior shooters in college come in and work their way toward having a functional jump shot. He'd be worth at least $12M per year if he hit the corner 3 like PJ Tucker can. It's that one damn shot.

It is frustrating, Q. Even more frustrating (and I think Lip will concur with this) is watching JO drain corner three after corner three with Ant's hand in his face pre-game...but he can't replicate it in a game!

Another value for JO that needs to be taken into consideration is that he is clearly Ant's best friend on the team (I'm basing this on how they are always hanging out together before games and chatting on the bench...J-Mac would be number 2 in my opinion). If keeping Ant happy is a priority for this team, I wouldn't be surprised if Finchy/Tim decide to keep a gritty guy like Okogie on the roster.

FNG wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It occurred to me tonight that one of the guys on the roster that fits the mold of rugged players is someone nobody is really expecting to come back Josh Okogie. It's possible in a year or 2 he is out of the league but he hasn't turned 24 yet and while I don't think his shooting will ever come around there is room on an NBA bench for a physical, athletic, play his butt off great attitude guy that can give you something when he is out there (defense) for dirt cheap.

I think Josh Okogie is one of the greatest disappointments for this franchise in the last 5 years, from a pure player personnel perspective. His defense, tenacity, physicality, and overall attitude absolutely checks all the boxes of a role playing playoff-ready defensive wing. But.....that outside shot.

I'm still dismayed and disillusioned at him literally regressing as a shooter from his college days while we witness countless other players in the league that were inferior shooters in college come in and work their way toward having a functional jump shot. He'd be worth at least $12M per year if he hit the corner 3 like PJ Tucker can. It's that one damn shot.

It is frustrating, Q. Even more frustrating (and I think Lip will concur with this) is watching JO drain corner three after corner three with Ant's hand in his face pre-game...but he can't replicate it in a game!

Another value for JO that needs to be taken into consideration is that he is clearly Ant's best friend on the team (I'm basing this on how they are always hanging out together before games and chatting on the bench...J-Mac would be number 2 in my opinion). If keeping Ant happy is a priority for this team, I wouldn't be surprised if Finchy/Tim decide to keep a gritty guy like Okogie on the roster.

Yeah, he has some value in that you can throw him out there for spot minutes to go guard someone and make their life miserable (let the dog loose, as KAT once joked). But he's just tough to play sustained minutes when good teams realize they can put a Center on him and basically zone up. I'm fine if he were to be re-signed to a small deal.

Q-was-here wrote:

FNG wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It occurred to me tonight that one of the guys on the roster that fits the mold of rugged players is someone nobody is really expecting to come back Josh Okogie. It's possible in a year or 2 he is out of the league but he hasn't turned 24 yet and while I don't think his shooting will ever come around there is room on an NBA bench for a physical, athletic, play his butt off great attitude guy that can give you something when he is out there (defense) for dirt cheap.

I think Josh Okogie is one of the greatest disappointments for this franchise in the last 5 years, from a pure player personnel perspective. His defense, tenacity, physicality, and overall attitude absolutely checks all the boxes of a role playing playoff-ready defensive wing. But.....that outside shot.

I'm still dismayed and disillusioned at him literally regressing as a shooter from his college days while we witness countless other players in the league that were inferior shooters in college come in and work their way toward having a functional jump shot. He'd be worth at least $12M per year if he hit the corner 3 like PJ Tucker can. It's that one damn shot.

It is frustrating, Q. Even more frustrating (and I think Lip will concur with this) is watching JO drain corner three after corner three with Ant's hand in his face pre-game...but he can't replicate it in a game!

Another value for JO that needs to be taken into consideration is that he is clearly Ant's best friend on the team (I'm basing this on how they are always hanging out together before games and chatting on the bench...J-Mac would be number 2 in my opinion). If keeping Ant happy is a priority for this team, I wouldn't be surprised if Finchy/Tim decide to keep a gritty guy like Okogie on the roster.

Yeah, he has some value in that you can throw him out there for spot minutes to go guard someone and make their life miserable (let the dog loose, as KAT once joked). But he's just tough to play sustained minutes when good teams realize they can put a Center on him and basically zone up. I'm fine if he were to be re-signed to a small deal.

I was reminded of Okogie because he was the next video that popped up after I watched the Tim Connelly press conference. It was a video with Okogie taking about mental health and it was posted just a few days ago. I agree there is value in Okogie that goes beyond his play on the court. How valuable is that even on a vet min deal? Idk but I think he is valued more than a similar player the Wolves could sign.

One problem which has been discussed before is that the Wolves have Vanderbilt who is almost a non-factor on offense. It's tough to play those guys at the same time unless it's just a defensive situation. One thing about Okogie is that he can handle the ball some. He isn't a play making guard but he isn't a guy that basically can't dribble. Sometimes he gets himself in trouble though attacking when he shouldn't. That reminds me a little of Corey Brewer...

Hearing about Okogie's pre game shooting prowess reminds me of another energy great guy I just mentioned Corey Brewer. There were all the reports of him shooting lights out in practice etc when he was younger. Hilariously Okogie's 3 point percentage this season was actually his best...but he took 47 of them so it's a pretty small sample to consider. His his FT shooting dropped. His career has been sort of the inverse of what usually happens. Guys struggle to get on the floor and minutes start ramping up. Instead Okogie ended up with pretty significant minutes from year one and this year he really dropped out of the rotation and only played around 500 mins. To me right now the Wolves don't have a roster spot to bring back a deep bench guy but if there were some moves made and a other roster spot was opened up and there was need for a rugged swing type then on a vet min deal then it might make some sense. I don't expect that scenario to happen and I'm not really hoping for it either. It feels like the Wolves have depth at that spot now that they didn't have in the past when quite frankly they may have been better off keeping Brewer for years instead of dealing him. If I was being realistically optimistic about Okogie I would ne thinking of him being a smaller version of Torrey Craig. That still requires a better 3 point shot...

Anywho it would be great to find a player like Okogie but could even be a little below average 3 point shooter instead of Okogie where you are almost surprised when they go in.