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Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:39 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
longstrangetrip wrote:Lipoli, I found your most recent post in this thread intriguing. I'm a big Bennett fan and am willing to give him a pass on last year based on his injury and showing up in shape. He has classic NBA body and looks much more athletic this year, and I think he is going to be a double double machine. So I would also consider trading Love for Bennett, TT and Waiters. I wouldn't be in love with that deal, though, and I agree that Flip would probably not do it. I can't fault him for that...at least not right now.
I'm not in agreement, though, on Wiggins' potential...I think it is sky high, and that's why I don't disagree with the Cavs' current decision to keep him. This is a guy who was widely considered to be the best prospect since LeBron (although not at LeBron's level, to be sure) coming out of high school, and he deserved to be the first pick in the best draft in years. And he was pretty good in his one year in college...leading a very good Kansas team in scoring at 17.1. And he got better as the season went on, averaging 20 points a game when it really mattered in March. His athleticism approaches LaVine's, but he combines it with a 6'-8" frame and enormous length that promises to turn him into a defensive star. Many of us are excited about LaVine's potential even though he didn't perform well his one year in college...we should be twice as excited about Wiggins' upside.
Porkchop is right...the national media is quite divided on the wisdom of the Cavs' including Wiggins in a deal for Love, and I agree that a case can be made either way. Although I don't think it's likely, I really hope the Cavs' relent and decide to include Wiggins. But if I'm a Cavs' fan, I really want to see what those five young high picks (Irving, Waiters, Bennett, Wiggins and TT) can do playing with LeBron. LeBron attracts so much attention and has such an exceptional ability to find the open teammate, these guys are going to get a lot of open looks....and most NBA wings drain open looks. The Cavs were not a good 3-point team last year, but with the addition of LBJ, I see Irving, Wiggins, Waiters and Bennett all capable of hitting 40% from beyond the arc. He's that effective at making teammates better, and he has to be drooling at the prospect of passing to so many high draft picks.
Giving Bennett a pass for being a fatass and not producing, but rip Love to pieces when he says "they" instead of "we"... Alrighty then. So, we've gone from Olynyk, Smart and two first rounders to Bennett, Thompson and Waiters. What's next, LST? Would you trade Love for a ham sandwich? You're a knowledgeable poster, but it's absolutely mind-boggling some of the stuff you've said lately. :dizzy:
Wiggins does have a high ceiling, but while everybody talks about his potential, the majority fails to realize he's far from a sure thing. His handle, or lack thereof, really concerns me and outside of his abilty to make nice post-entry passes, he isn't a good facilitator either. HE DOES HAVE HIS FLAWS. HE IS NOT A PERFECT PROSPECT. I've already posted lengthy comments on why Cleveland trading for Love is a no-brainer. Why? They instantly become favorites for the championship over the next four/five years
at least. Do you personally think Wiggins + misfit toys help LeBron win championships over the same time period aka the rest of LeBron's prime? You shouldn't and I hope you're smart enough to know this.
Also, while Wiggins has a high ceiling, LaVine is just under that level. LaVine actually has a handle, court vision and a better jumpshot. Both have things to work on, but I certainly wouldn't say we should be twice as excited for Wiggins.
"The Cavs were not a good 3-point team last year, but with the addition of LBJ, I see Irving, Wiggins, Waiters and Bennett all capable of hitting 40% from beyond the arc."
And your reason for thinking that is...? LeBron will get them more open looks, this is true. Ask Ricky Rubio, just because they're open, it doesn't mean they're any closer to the rim.
I won't argue Irving hitting 40%, but the others? Bennett shot 37.5% from three in his only year in college, only to turn around and shoot 24.5% in his rookie year. Can he improve? I'd think so, but 40%? C'mon man. Waiters was a 36% guy from three before he entered the NBA. He just took a big leap from 31% to 36.8% in his second year, which is right around his college mark. His shot selection isn't the greatest and with or without LeBron, 40% is a stretch.
I bet LeBron is drooling to play with Irving and Love, considering I still believe acquiring the big man was part of the sell from Cleveland's side of things. Which is better, potential or production? Now, what if you could have both? That's what the Cavs would get if they added Love, along with championships. But hey, who needs those when you have Anthony Bennett.
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:45 am
by alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]
Camden wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:Lipoli, I found your most recent post in this thread intriguing. I'm a big Bennett fan and am willing to give him a pass on last year based on his injury and showing up in shape. He has classic NBA body and looks much more athletic this year, and I think he is going to be a double double machine. So I would also consider trading Love for Bennett, TT and Waiters. I wouldn't be in love with that deal, though, and I agree that Flip would probably not do it. I can't fault him for that...at least not right now.
I'm not in agreement, though, on Wiggins' potential...I think it is sky high, and that's why I don't disagree with the Cavs' current decision to keep him. This is a guy who was widely considered to be the best prospect since LeBron (although not at LeBron's level, to be sure) coming out of high school, and he deserved to be the first pick in the best draft in years. And he was pretty good in his one year in college...leading a very good Kansas team in scoring at 17.1. And he got better as the season went on, averaging 20 points a game when it really mattered in March. His athleticism approaches LaVine's, but he combines it with a 6'-8" frame and enormous length that promises to turn him into a defensive star. Many of us are excited about LaVine's potential even though he didn't perform well his one year in college...we should be twice as excited about Wiggins' upside.
Porkchop is right...the national media is quite divided on the wisdom of the Cavs' including Wiggins in a deal for Love, and I agree that a case can be made either way. Although I don't think it's likely, I really hope the Cavs' relent and decide to include Wiggins. But if I'm a Cavs' fan, I really want to see what those five young high picks (Irving, Waiters, Bennett, Wiggins and TT) can do playing with LeBron. LeBron attracts so much attention and has such an exceptional ability to find the open teammate, these guys are going to get a lot of open looks....and most NBA wings drain open looks. The Cavs were not a good 3-point team last year, but with the addition of LBJ, I see Irving, Wiggins, Waiters and Bennett all capable of hitting 40% from beyond the arc. He's that effective at making teammates better, and he has to be drooling at the prospect of passing to so many high draft picks.
Giving Bennett a pass for being a fatass and not producing, but rip Love to pieces when he says "they" instead of "we"... Alrighty then. So, we've gone from Olynyk, Smart and two first rounders to Bennett, Thompson and Waiters. What's next, LST?
Would you trade Love for a ham sandwich? You're a knowledgeable poster, but it's absolutely mind-boggling some of the stuff you've said lately. :dizzy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70xRFsosIgk
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:46 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
https://twitter.com/dionwaiters3/status/488972133075546113
I don't see this as a major factor, but I'm always looking for anything that might convince the Cavs to trade Wiggins. I think Wiggins would quickly move ahead of Waiters at SG, and I don't see Waiters as the kind of guy who would be happy with that...his tweet confirms that. Based on Luol Deng's comments that Irving and Waiters actually get along quite well, maybe the Cavs could be inclined to trade Wiggins, Bennett and TT for Love, and roll with Irving, Waiters, James, Love and Varejo. Allows them to avoid making Waiters unhappy. Wishful thinking.
Another angle though might be this. If the Cavs hold firm on not including Wiggins and no Love deal happens, they may be inclined to try to move Waiters. Perhaps the Wolves could trade JJ, Bud or Lexi straight up for Waiters.
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:59 am
by MikeAz [enjin:6636981]
Nice story by Gregg Doyel from CBS in favor of a Love for Wiggins deal.
http://www.cbssports.com/general/writer/gregg-doyel/24621777/dealing-andrew-wiggins-potential-for-kevin-loves-game-now-is-right-move
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:06 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
Cam, I definitely don't want to trade Love for a ham sandwich...I want to maximize the return we get for him, and still dream about a Wiggins. But I continue to think evidence proves we are overvaluing Love, and that Flip needs to take a good look at the deals that are coming his way. Lip said he would consider a Bennett, Waiters, TT deal, and I said that I would certainly consider it too. It's not optimal, but three top 4 picks hardly constitutes a "ham sandwich".
I don't find my comment that Irving, Bennett, Wiggins and Waiters all approach 40% on threes with LeBron preposterous at all. As much as I love Rubio, he is not going to give his teammates as many open 3-point looks as LeBron would. Both have incredible vision and ability to deliver the ball to the right man, but there is a big difference between the two. Because LBJ is a much more dangerous scoring threat than Ricky, defenses can't sag off of him, and in fact, often have to devote two defenders to him. Naturally LeBron is going to have more open teammates than Ricky, and he will find them. And they will hit their open opportunities. Bennett is the biggest stretch in my opinion to hit 40%, but just for fun let's compare him to Love in the only two comparable years. Bennett was a better 3-point shooter in college, and a much better 3-point shooter in his rookie season. By the way, I think Love easily would be a 40% 3-point shooter if he were paired with LeBron, but there is no evidence to suggest that Bennett wouldn't be too...especially when he has had more success than Love in comparable seasons.
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:22 am
by Monster
I was listening to Colin Cowherd this morning who I actually tend to like, and he had Goodman on who wrote the article about the GMs on whether they would trade Wiggins for Love. He said he was shocked more would keep Wiggins than trade Love. Before this segment Colin made a really good point he said Wiggins is gonna be a defender and Lebron is probably tired of being the perimeter defender every night. He said if you trade for Love who plays defense? Wiggens seems to be that guy and with perimeter being where the game is going having a young defender like Wiggins is projected to be well that's pretty significant.
After the segment I started thinking about what the cap situation would be if they traded for Love. Love, Lebron and Kyrie would take up a massive section of the cap and really limit what they can add later. Yes I realize that if the Cavs young guys turn out to be good they will have to pay them but also its possible Lebron takes a paycut at that time if those guys are worth it to keep them.
Its a really interesting discussion Love for Wiggins but its interesting to hear others actually agree with what LST and I have been saying for keeping Wiggins. If I was with the Cavs it would be a tough decision based on what info I have but they have a lot more than I do.
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:23 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
longstrangetrip wrote:Cam, I definitely don't want to trade Love for a ham sandwich...I want to maximize the return we get for him, and still dream about a Wiggins. But I continue to think evidence proves we are overvaluing Love, and that Flip needs to take a good look at the deals that are coming his way. Lip said he would consider a Bennett, Waiters, TT deal, and I said that I would certainly consider it too. It's not optimal, but three top 4 picks hardly constitutes a "ham sandwich".
I don't find my comment that Irving, Bennett, Wiggins and Waiters all approach 40% on threes with LeBron preposterous at all. As much as I love Rubio, he is not going to give his teammates as many open 3-point looks as LeBron would. Both have incredible vision and ability to deliver the ball to the right man, but there is a big difference between the two. Because LBJ is a much more dangerous scoring threat than Ricky, defenses can't sag off of him, and in fact, often have to devote two defenders to him. Naturally LeBron is going to have more open teammates than Ricky, and he will find them. And they will hit their open opportunities. Bennett is the biggest stretch in my opinion to hit 40%, but just for fun let's compare him to Love in the only two comparable years. Bennett was a better 3-point shooter in college, and a much better 3-point shooter in his rookie season. By the way, I think Love easily would be a 40% 3-point shooter if he were paired with LeBron, but there is no evidence to suggest that Bennett wouldn't be too...especially when he has had more success than Love in comparable seasons.
You're focusing on where the players in question were selected whereas I'm looking at the talent that player possesses. I don't care where they where drafted; their respective drafts are over. That's acting like Wes Johnson, Derrick Williams and Johnny Flynn held value because of their slots even though they hadn't proven anything in the NBA other than they were drafted too high. The same goes for the Cleveland misfit toys.
Which, if any, of those three Cavs players have serious All-Star potential? You're likely to say Bennett, but the player with the strongest push would be Waiters and that's far from a lock. So yes, that package would be a ham sandwich.
"As much as I love Rubio, he is not going to give his teammates as many open 3-point looks as LeBron would." Not once did I make this claim.
So we're comparing Bennett to Love now? Jesus. Bennett's the next Love. Waiters is the next Harden. Wiggins is the next LeBron. Now I see why Cleveland won't trade them.
How many times have I seen you make the argument in Shabazz's favor that his coach didn't want him shooting threes, and you compare that to Love's first couple seasons with Rambis as the coach. But now it's useful for you to compare Love's shooting percentages against Bennett's when he had freedom to do whatever he wanted on the court. Flip flop flip flop flip flop.
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:47 am
by m4gor [enjin:6667447]
actually i have to disagree on Bennett with many of you, he is just 6'7 with shoes with decent wingspan, but the same wingspan has also Derrick Williams who is like 2 inches higher which still is not enough to play NBA PF, also keep in mind that Bennett has no backt-to-basket skills, Bennett would have to slim down and play 3 but c mon i dont want this kind of project again ..
i would actually value mid 1st round pick higher than Bennett also dont forget that he is No.1 pick just because CLE screwed up big time, that is not like that it is adding any value to him, he is guy who should go 6-10th in draft who has shown absolutely nothing first year and SL is just a joke with not many guys with proper size and skills ..
Also when it comes to CAVs, if you would think about teams with really iffy front offices cappable of doing really silly moves, one of them would have to be CAVs and Lebron going home is not making them any better, so it is actually possible that even though all analyst and people around NBA would trade Wiggins for Love in a minute, CAVs might screw this like bosses again
So when it comes to actual trade i would take Wiggins+Thompson+SAC first rounder, or Wiggins+Waiters+SAC+HEAT first rounders, (or ofc Wiggins+Waiters+Thompson)
and When it comes to Lebron's letter, i actually expect that he had him prepared for some time and Wiggins omission is because concept of letter was written way before draft day, i just think people are trying to read too deep
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:13 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
Cam, I don't see my comments comparing Love's 3-point shooting to Muhammad's and Bennett's to be a flip flop. I agree that Love's 3-point shooting his rookie year should be thrown out, but I think the same for Muhammad and Bennett's (in fact, I toss out most rookie year stats) That's why I included the college comparison too, because that is a full year of data...and I find it valid to point out that Bennett and Shabazz hit a higher percentage of threes than Love in college. And my point remains that Bennett should be able to hit 40% when he's on the court with James. He hit 38% on threes in college (admittedly a shorter shot) when he was the only guy on the team that the defense had to focus on...he certainly should be able to hit 40 % with more wide-open looks as a 4th or 5th option. Just watch any NBA team warming up before games or at halftime...these guys don't miss threes when there's no hand in their face.
I didn't suggest that you said Rubio would give his teammates more open looks than LBJ, because we both know he wouldn't. I was just playing off your comment where you referenced Rubio in saying that just because NBA wings are open, it doesn't mean they are any closer to the rim. It seemed like you were saying 3-point shooters should be thriving with Ricky, and I would argue that will not be true until Ricky can attract more attention from the defense. But they do thrive with James, and that's why I think all the guys I mentioned will be around 40% with him.
I agree with your point that a player's draft position doesn't guarantee NBA success. In fact, I think Waiters, TT and perhaps Bennett were drafted too high. But you can't ignore the fact most if not all NBA GMs saw them as top 10 talent, along with Irving and Wiggins, and that means there is potential. And who better to help a player realize his potential than LeBron. I would argue that there are 2 factors in the NBA that are most likely to lead a player to his ceiling...playing in Popovich's system, or playing with LeBron.
Cam, you seem to be in attack mode here toward anyone who suggests that the Cavs would be better off keeping their young talent than trading for Love, but as monster and porkchop have pointed out, more NBA experts in the ESPN insider article agree with my take. I don't take offense at your belief that the Cavs would be better off with Love and am willing to accept that it may even turn out to be true, but based on what I have seen, I gravitate toward a different view. I just don't think it furthers the debate by calling my takes "mind-boggling" when they are in line with the majority of guys that do this for a living...or at least the ones in the ESPN article. The sports world is clearly divided on this issue, and that's what makes it such an interesting topic.
Re: Who blinks first?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:17 pm
by Coolbreeze44
I'm starting to change my thinking on the Wiggins for Love deal. Initially I though Wiggins participation in summer league was a clear sign they fully intended to keep him. They still may, but now I am starting to realize that a deal could still happen, provided it is before the start of the season. The problem is there just isn't any urgency on either side to get a deal done now. This could stretch out for another couple months before any urgency sets in. I'm prepared for a long ride filled with rumors and speculation.