Minnesota Sports Forum

Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.

(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)

Camden wrote:Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.

(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)

Not just that series but if LeBron's whole playoff averages were clearly inferior to Wade, I think it is reasonable to say that he was 2nd fiddle to Wade.(even his averages without Dallas series would have been better than Wades) Playoffs are the time when teams best players will show up.

Good example is 1999-2000 Pacers. During regular season, Jalen Rose had clearly higher USG with 23.2 than Miller (20.5). Also their scoring average during regular season was pretty much even but when playoff began, it was clear that it was still Miller's team. He had 24 pts per game to Rose's 20.8.

I think that situation in Miami 2010-11 season was pretty much same. LeBron was the man during regular season but when playoffs started, real top dog Wade raised his game to another level and LeBron took a back seat.

Wade had averages 24.5 pts, 30.4 USG%, 26.3 PER with .57 TS% compared to LeBron's 23.7 pts, 26.9 USG%, 23.7 PER with .563 TS%.

Out of curiosity, because LeBron and Wade's games goes way further than just scoring, what did their assists and rebounds look like?

Camden wrote:Out of curiosity, because LeBron and Wade's games goes way further than just scoring, what did their assists and rebounds look like?

LeBron had higher assists (5.9 vs 4.4) and rebounding numbers (8.4 vs 7.1). Even his per 36 minutes numbers were little higher than Wade's but not that much because he played 4 minutes more per game. But since those numbers were not that much better that his PER would have been higher than Wade's, I think LeBron's contributions in other areas were not enough to make Wade second fiddle to him especially when he struggled so badly in the most important games.

Everytime I watch the Hawks. I can't help but think they should have never traded Payne.

Yeah, maybe Payne would have been the difference that would have moved them past Cavs. I think his absence was already visible in regular season after the all star break since Atlanta was 43-11 at the break and 17-11 after the break. :P

Actually I think Hawks might be missing more Thabo than people think. Thabo had highest plus minus numbers (+7.4) out of all Hawks bench players and even though Carroll has been tremendous in playoffs, he was the only starter in regular season with negative plus minus (-0.5). Atlanta also stated to struggle after Thado was injured. They had NBA best record 39-8 before that.

Atlanta has basically same team and same coach than last year except they replaced Lou Williams with Thabo. Of course they had also Al Horford whole season compared to just 29 games that he played last season, but still having veteran 3 and d guy on the bench that can be take opponents best wing player might have been more important than we think.

Camden0916 wrote:Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.

(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)

I'd take Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan over him guaranteed right now. If Lebron keeps losing title matchups it's going to get worse.

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.

(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)

I'd take Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan over him guaranteed right now. If Lebron keeps losing title matchups it's going to get worse.

I have LeBron right up there with all of them. the big difference is they all had terrific supporting casts, like LeBron did in Miami. Jordan had Pippen, Russell had Cousy. Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, and Duncan had Parker/Gniboli. And LeBron is on the verge of sweeping a division championship series with a starting cast of Shumpert, Mozgov, Dellavedova and Thompson! He's not likely to beat Golden State, but I would argue that none of the 5 guys you mention would beat GS with the four guys LeBron has beside him.

What LeBron is doing right now is unbelievable. He makes every player around him so much better. Its not just on the court, but the confidence he is instilling in these guys off the court that they bring to the court themselves. I also hate comparing generations. We all know athletes overall and the competition get better as generations go on. The only players in the top 5 argument that I see as transcendent are Jordan, lebron, magic, duncan and Kobe.

In overall ability, I think its hard to argue that LeBron is not the best of all time. Especially when you consider competition nowadays. Title talk/ killer instinct may be an argument where Jordan, Kobe, and Duncan all beat him out. I don't see him getting enough titles to edge Jordan, but I see him going down as a top 3 player of all time for sure, behind Jordan and Duncan likely.

longstrangetrip wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Yeah, LeBron absolutely struggled that series. I'm not arguing that at all, but I didn't realize a seven-game series determined who was first or second fiddle when the guy carried that team all the way to that point.

(Jordan's in a class by himself. LeBron is a top-five guy, though, when he retires. That shouldn't even be debatable.)

I'd take Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan over him guaranteed right now. If Lebron keeps losing title matchups it's going to get worse.

I have LeBron right up there with all of them. the big difference is they all had terrific supporting casts, like LeBron did in Miami. Jordan had Pippen, Russell had Cousy. Magic had Kareem, Bird had McHale, and Duncan had Parker/Gniboli. And LeBron is on the verge of sweeping a division championship series with a starting cast of Shumpert, Mozgov, Dellavedova and Thompson! He's not likely to beat Golden State, but I would argue that none of the 5 guys you mention would beat GS with the four guys LeBron has beside him.

Without Kyrie playing none of the guys playing with Lebron are sure starters in this league. They have stepped up their games no doubt but why can't Lebron get some credit for that? Lebron is an odd wing superstar because he is a passing unselfish to a point and sometimes to a fault player. That finish against Atlanta where he was clearly hurting bigtime was pretty good.

Props to the Hawks that was a hell of a performance and that was a classic eastern conference game guys were diving for loose balls playing hard.