Minnesota Sports Forum

D-Mac wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I think Gobert is our best player now. I saw ESPN had him at 26 and KAT at 25 last year but I honestly think Gobert is undervalued because he does NON flashy things like blocking shots and rebounding at an elite level.

People get caught up in highlight dunks and long range threes. Defense is undervalued in the NBA I think by many media pundits and fans.

I wouldn't argue with this statement at all. I hope Ant changes that soon, but as of today, I'd give gobert the edge over Kat.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Let's look at this trade through a different lens.

Can you imagine what people would be saying about Dallas if they had Gobert and Towns with Luka? Wowzers.

The Wolves did deal away some worthwhile/good players but the cupboard is not bare. Some people don't like Russell but he is a good player a starting PG that now may fit well. Nowell now has a shot at being a terrific 6th man. Anderson is a versatile player who has contributed to winning teams. McDaniels is not proven (neither is Nowell) but even if he doesn't take a massive step he is still probably a pretty good role player. Naz is a worthwhile backup. Prince is a good player.

The Wolves are banking on some guys stepping forward including McLaughlin but if some of them do this could be a really good team and I think there will be some good vibes from the players especially since some players now will have an actual role instead of waiting their turn. What if a guy like Moore is actually able to contribute earlier rather than later if needed?

Not a great comparison. They spent a pick to trade for Luka, and right now Luka is better than Ant. If they got Kat and RG for the same picks that MIN gave up for Just RG, it's more understandable. DAL is also in a much better place revenue-wise. Blame it on them having the fourth largest market. Blame it on nobody in DAL/FTW caring about Hockey. Blame it on a better track record. But it is a fact.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

FNG wrote:I guess we knew Lore was a "go big or go home" kind of guy, and he certainly went big. The national pundits are largely panning the deal for the Wolves (I see a lot of A grades for Utah, and C's and D's for us), and I haven't fully analyzed it yet. But it's hard for me to rip a deal that instantly makes us a top 4 seed...and in the conversation for a championship. We will be starting one of the longest front lines in the history of the NBA, with two of them elite defenders and one an improving defender. It's difficult to not get excited about this deal. I hate to lose PatBev and Vando, but I wasn't that excited about Kessler and at least the first three lost picks should be in the mid to late 20s...not a big deal. Plus, we have instantly become an attractive destination for a vet guard who wants to win a championship (haven't thought of names yet). What veteran guard who wants to win wouldn't want to join a team with Gobert, KAT and Ant in the starting lineup?

My biggest concern about this team is whether DLo is going to stay, and if so, is he going to fizzle in the playoffs again. Obviously I would have preferred to see him go out and Conley come in, but I'm guessing Utah wasn't too enamored of Russell. The stats may say differently, but DLo looked best on defense last year when he had PatBev next to him allowing him to play free safety. My concern is we are going to see the DLo defense of old, and that will be a big roadblock to the kind of success this roster can have...elite rim protectors' value is limited if you have a guy opposing teams can target to get wide open threes. Maybe TC still has a way to move him and bring in a defensive-minded pass-first guard...if so, this team could make it to the finals. If not, we're going to have to cheer for Russell, and hope Finchie doesn't have to sub J-Mac in for him in the playoffs again.

In any event, this is going to be fun...

Wow
1. This is to everybody: NOTHING SAYS THOSE PICK HAVE TO BE IN THE TWENTIES! Maybe they disappoint, maybe a couple of key guys get injured. Ask '97 San Antonio, or recent era GSW.
2. My biggest concern about DLO is that he is not great at breaking down his guy, so RG's guy doesn't need to go stop ball, so there's no lob, and RG is not great a creating his own shot.
3. If J-Mac is getting more than 6 minutes a game for you in the playoffs, they'll be mercifully short.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:On the flipside, think to KGs tenure here. 8 straight first round playoff exits. Everytime someone like Gary Payton or Allen Iverson became available the Wolves came up short or got cold feet. They went all in once and really it was lightning in a bottle with Sam Cassell having his best year at the right time. That time period is known in basketball history for wasting away Garnett's career.

This deal sets to elevate Town's prime years and maximize Ant's upside years, not sit back and hope that someone will eventually come along. We could be waiting another 4 years to get another premier player for Towns and then he will be 30. If this ultimately doesn't work the team can conceivably get 2 more bites at the Ant prime apple. Why wait? Let's go!

Loved the topic, went downhill from there.
1. "Came up short on Gary Payton"? Very true, but not for the reason you think. GP was traded for former Timberwolf Ray Allen, so yeah, Allen for Payton definitely could have happened. And not for nothing, but Maybe Lurch takes the draft slash his job a little more seriously.
2. I remember the Iverson thing being for very specific guy(s) that Larry Brown wanted. If you have evidence that LB wanted a Wolf or Wolves that weren't KG, I would love to see it.
3. Cassell wasn't "all in". It was basically Joe Smith. No Firsts.
4. "Hope"? How about they do their job and draft "someone"? Like that time Utah drafted Gobert.
5. So why is it that KAT being 30 is so not-great but it's fine with RG?

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Did you guys see the sign when you entered the park? "DON'T FEED THE TROLL". He's hungry as hell and needs to be ignored, left to forage for food on his own.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Ha! I empathize with the feelings you're having, Lip, and I wouldn't have made this trade either. That needs to be very clear and on the record.

While the future salary cap issues are extreme with Rudy Gobert on the payroll, and the war chest of assets is missing a handful of first-round picks, I truly believe that the upcoming season of Timberwolves basketball will be one of the best and most successful in franchise history -- a low bar to exceed, no doubt. The 2022-23 roster looks like the best and most talented that we've seen in a long time, and maybe ever. I can get excited about that even though I'm aware of what was given up.

In terms of value, I think Minnesota gave up too much for Gobert. Four first-round picks plus the rights to 2022 first-rounder, Walker Kessler, and more is a bitter pill to swallow. I mentioned that the quantity of firsts outgoing for Minnesota would likely have been lower had they been willing to include Jaden McDaniels in their package. That has essentially been confirmed by The Athletic. That's a mighty big detail in all of this and it places even more importance on his player development.

However, Gobert is an elite player in the NBA even though he's often cast aside in those conversations. He's undoubtedly a top-20 player in the league and a future Hall of Famer. The annual Defensive Player of the Year candidate (and three-time winner) is a legitimate team-changer, a ceiling-riser. We went from hoping for an average defense last year and being happy with middle of the ranks to now expecting a top-five defense next year. That's the Gobert effect. He just puts a lid on the basket whether he actually blocks shots, alters the attempt, or intimidates shooters from even challenging him. The impact I expect him to have on this team is insane.

Did Minnesota give up way too much? Yes, I believe they did. But if they make a couple of legitimate runs at the conference finals and beyond, will we look back and think fondly of this move? I tend to believe we will, especially because of how little winning we've experienced as fans of this organization. It's an all-in move with an aggressive front office supported by new ownership who appears to be results-driven and invested as fans of the product. They want to win as much as we do. When you take all of that into account I think you can talk yourself into enjoying the next couple of years. They might have to reshuffle some parts later on, but they likely went from a team that had a fifth-seed ceiling to a team that could be playing in the NBA Finals if things go their way. That has to mean something.

Good post, Cam. A thoughtful analysis that accurately captures the upside of this deal. I still dislike the deal, but I'll have to deal with it. :). Fingers crossed that our two bigs and Ant stay healthy. You and I agree that the Wolves gave up too much in this deal. I think we differ a bit on just how much better this deal made the Wolves. I'll have to ponder how much better this team is right now than it would have been with we Beverley, Kessler and Myles Turner, Capela or Richaun Holmes, all of them likely available for Beasley, Naz and maybe one future 1st. The Caesar's oddsmakers increased the Wolves championship odds from 80-1 to 50-1. That's a significant gain, but 50-1 doesn't seem anywhere close to the value the Wolves just gave up for Rudy. And note the beginning odds of 80-1 did not reflect any further acquisitions like Capela or Turner. One thing for sure is that the Wolves have less depth, a much higher risk profile and far less flexibility to adjust and recover from the trials and unforeseeable events that always come along.

I'm with you in questioning whether keeping McDaniels was worth giving up multiple additional picks. I guess we don't know how many additional picks were substituted for McDaniels, but I believe it was more than one of the four. And I'm a big McDaniels fan who's been preaching patience. On the other hand, he hasn't been more than a role player so far and he was the 28th pick in the draft. To keep him, we apparently gave up probably two if not three picks at 28 or better.

My final thought is that there's a rhythm to things and this deal just seems out of rhythm. I guess that's just another riff on my tone deaf theme. There was an edge to this team with Beverley and even Beasley. There was excitement building in the arrival of Kessler and the potential of Bolmaro. We had all our future first-round picks and some additional moves to make that would have been more measured but still exciting. Beverly gave this team a personality that was infectious among teammates. I don't know what our team's personality is now.

And one final question. If the Wolves suddenly decided they wanted to turn around and trade Gobert, is there another team that would give the Wolves anything close to what we just gave Utah? My answer is absolutely not. That in itself is telling.

The only thing I'll mention or disagree with a bit is this. There were numerous reports of the Wolves looking to acquire Rudy, Turner, Capela and others. So that 80-1 was at least reflecting that a decent chance of the Wolves getting a defensive Center was priced in.

Had they stood pat maybe the odds drop to 100-1 or 120-1 instead of increasing to 50-1.

I've seen numerous national media reports and many pundits are grossly undervaluing Rudys impact on winning games.

The Wolves got beat by Memphis because they couldn't rebound the damn ball. They just acquired the best one in the NBA. Defense is not only about making a shot tougher, you need to also rebound. The Wolves couldn't do that. I'm happy we got the best rebounder in the NBA.

Camden wrote:Drew, I'd expect to see some creative zone defenses used from Chris Finch at times in the regular season and playoffs. Minnesota could cause some real havoc/problems in a 2-1-2 zone with their length and athleticism. Theoretically, they'd be capable of protecting the rim and the corners with both Karl-Anthony Towns and Rudy Gobert playing on either side of baseline. The real key is Jaden McDaniels ability to man the middle and take away entry passes to cutters with his length and anticipation, as well as providing help should Anthony Edwards or D'Angelo Russell get beat at the top. Finch will have a plethora of options schematically that he'll be able to tinker with and he's shown that he can pull the right strings when needed. He'll just have to do that in more pressure-intense spots as it pertains to the post-season.

FNG wrote:Trent Tucker loves this deal, and made a good point on In the Zone this morning. Rudy Gobert was part of a team 2 seasons ago that had the best record in the NBA. And the 4 players who played the most minutes that season for Utah (other than him) were Royce O'Neale, Bojan Bogdonavic, Joe Ingles, and Jordan Clarkson. Granted they also got minutes, albeit not top 5, from Conley and Mitchell, and the four players mentioned above are no slouches. But TT's point with which I agree is that Minnesota's supporting cast is superior to the Utah team that won a normalized 59 games that season. If TT is right, our Tim could finally have a nickname with some credibility!