Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:Gers should take advantage of the current climate of free agency. 2 of the best guys remaining have little prospects. We know the Wolves have to add a "Minnesota" tax to get free agents. I say swing for the fences and do a sign and trade Kelly Oubre for Taurean Prince. That should get Oubre close to where he wants to be. Prince could be useful to GS while not being long term salary and they have shown a willingness to help players get what they want.

Then I'd offer Juancho, Culver and Layman for Markkanen. That should be ballpark salary he wants. The Bulls could use some bodies to fill out their roster anyway. Throw a second their way or a heavily protected first maybe.

Then offer Okogie to replace Josh Richardson in Dallas for WCS or maybe some other big and a late first.

Bring back Vandy and JMac.

Towns/Naz/WCS
Markkanen/Vandy
Oubre/Jaden/Bolmaro
Ant/Beas/Nowell
DLo/Jmac

This could be a chance to upgrade the talent level even if it's not a perfect match but this team isn't in a position to overlook talent.

Again... WHY would Chicago who is ALL IN on making the playoffs willingly get worse? None of those guys are even rotation guys in the playoffs.

They'd be better off letting Markannen walk for nothing.

And they'd at least try to land him on a one year qualifying offer first. That's a possibility here if the market dries up completely. At the very least, they can trade him for SOMETHING that's an actual asset.



[Note: And Bullock replaced Richardson already in Dallas. Nobody wants Okogie for much of an asset either.]

Well Chicago is getting likely a first for facilitating a move for Markkanen, who they may not want to keep. There is also the option of moving those contracts onto OKC but that means the pick goes there instead. In that case the Bulls get a TPE which may be more to their liking. Then they specifically target players from teams that dont want Markannen. Still seems doable to me.

If the Bulls demand a future 1st round pick as part of a sign-and-trade for Markkanen, then Rosas should pass on the deal and move on to something else. I'd feel differently if he were a one-way defensive stalwart and durable. But he's neither and not worth giving up another 1st round pick.

lipoli390 wrote:If the Bulls demand a future 1st round pick as part of a sign-and-trade for Markkanen, then Rosas should pass on the deal and move on to something else. I'd feel differently if he were a one-way defensive stalwart and durable. But he's neither and not worth giving up another 1st round pick.

That's a fair stance to have, Lip. I see the 24-year old Lauri Markkanen as a player that would be worth a highly-protected first-round pick in the event that Minnesota would be dumping roughly $10-13-million of expiring contracts on the Chicago Bulls. Of course, I would also expect that protection to trigger in a year leaving the Bulls with a second-round pick or pick(s) instead.

The prospect of having at least Karl-Anthony Towns, D'Angelo Russell, and Markkanen -- all deadly three-point shooters -- being able to spread the floor for a budding young star in Anthony Edwards is exciting and conducive to his development, I feel. Add Taurean Prince and Malik Beasley to that group, assuming the latter stays out of legal trouble, and that would objectively be the best shooting team this franchise has ever had. Their catch-and-shoot numbers last year speak to their lethality from the perimeter.

Towns: 104-251 (41.4 3P%)
Beasley: 95-230 (41.3 3P%)
Markkanen: 118-291 (40.5 3P%)
Russell: 59-151 (39.1 3P%)
Prince: 41-105 (39.0 3P%)
McDaniels: 67-182 (36.8 3P%)
Reid: 60-168 (35.7 3P%)

As a result of the improved outside shooting, I would expect this team to be even better that we currently project in the win-loss column.

It's also worth noting that a sign-and-trade for Markkanen does not signal that Minnesota would be out on bringing Jarred Vanderbilt back. He's an ideal backup four and has statistical success when paired with Towns and Edwards. I trust Chris Finch would be flexible and creative in the many lineup combinations he could put together with that group of talent. Talent. That's the idea here. Keep adding highly-talented players and we'll figure out the fit later.

Cam - You make a good case for pursuing Markkanen, even if it it means giving up a protected 1st. If the pick is top 20 protected, I think I could get comfortable with the deal - assuming we don't include Beasley, McDaniels, Vanderbilt or Reid. I agree with you that a deal for Markkanen would not preclude retaining Vanderbilt, which I could consider a high priority given the lack of defense and rebounding on the roster.

There are really three routes the team can go at this juncture:

1. Status Quo. Go with our current roster plus our current cap holds (Vanderbilt, JMac, Bolmaro) and see where the chips fall this season with an eye towards more aggressive maneuvering next offseason when we'll have more financial flexibility and draft picks.

2. Status Quo Plus Tweaks. Add a defensive big like WCS or a defensive wing like Winslow to the current roster plus current cap holds and, again, see where the chips fall with major maneuvering reserved for next offseason.

3. Talent Upgrade. This is your approach with the Markkanen sign-and-trade you're suggesting. The idea makes sense. Turn this team into an elite offensive team by adding another really good shooter/scorer like Markkanen who, at age 24, still has significant upside, and become a better team overall even if no better defensively. That could give the Wolves something more to build on. Your suggested Markkanen deal appears to be the only potentially realistic way to go down this route. Getting a Ben Simmons isn't realistic. And a trade for Myles Turner would likely require the Wolves to give up Beasley, McDaniels or both, which would mean no significant net gain overall. If we could get Markkanen without giving up any significant players on our current roster, then the Wolves would have a net talent gain that could propel the franchise forward.

My preferred path is route #2. But I see merit in all three paths.

Camden0916 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:If the Bulls demand a future 1st round pick as part of a sign-and-trade for Markkanen, then Rosas should pass on the deal and move on to something else. I'd feel differently if he were a one-way defensive stalwart and durable. But he's neither and not worth giving up another 1st round pick.

That's a fair stance to have, Lip. I see the 24-year old Lauri Markkanen as a player that would be worth a highly-protected first-round pick in the event that Minnesota would be dumping roughly $10-13-million of expiring contracts on the Chicago Bulls. Of course, I would also expect that protection to trigger in a year leaving the Bulls with a second-round pick or pick(s) instead.

The prospect of having at least Karl-Anthony Towns, D'Angelo Russell, and Markkanen -- all deadly three-point shooters -- being able to spread the floor for a budding young star in Anthony Edwards is exciting and conducive to his development, I feel. Add Taurean Prince and Malik Beasley to that group, assuming the latter stays out of legal trouble, and that would objectively be the best shooting team this franchise has ever had. Their catch-and-shoot numbers last year speak to their lethality from the perimeter.

Towns: 104-251 (41.4 3P%)
Beasley: 95-230 (41.3 3P%)
Markkanen: 118-291 (40.5 3P%)
Russell: 59-151 (39.1 3P%)
Prince: 41-105 (39.0 3P%)
McDaniels: 67-182 (36.8 3P%)
Reid: 60-168 (35.7 3P%)

As a result of the improved outside shooting, I would expect this team to be even better that we currently project in the win-loss column.

It's also worth noting that a sign-and-trade for Markkanen does not signal that Minnesota would be out on bringing Jarred Vanderbilt back. He's an ideal backup four and has statistical success when paired with Towns and Edwards. I trust Chris Finch would be flexible and creative in the many lineup combinations he could put together with that group of talent. Talent. That's the idea here. Keep adding highly-talented players and we'll figure out the fit later.

I'm not sure I would call Markkanen an elite shooter and I will say why and you can say what your thoughts are. Last season he shot the ball well but overall he is a 36.6% 3 point shooter which is ok. I saw something about him being a very good catch and shoot guy but idk if that was career or just last season.

I do agree with you Cam there is a possibility of Lauri improving as a player including as a defender. My thing is how much would I pay to bank on that improvement or what he might be even if he just is what he is.

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:If the Bulls demand a future 1st round pick as part of a sign-and-trade for Markkanen, then Rosas should pass on the deal and move on to something else. I'd feel differently if he were a one-way defensive stalwart and durable. But he's neither and not worth giving up another 1st round pick.

That's a fair stance to have, Lip. I see the 24-year old Lauri Markkanen as a player that would be worth a highly-protected first-round pick in the event that Minnesota would be dumping roughly $10-13-million of expiring contracts on the Chicago Bulls. Of course, I would also expect that protection to trigger in a year leaving the Bulls with a second-round pick or pick(s) instead.

The prospect of having at least Karl-Anthony Towns, D'Angelo Russell, and Markkanen -- all deadly three-point shooters -- being able to spread the floor for a budding young star in Anthony Edwards is exciting and conducive to his development, I feel. Add Taurean Prince and Malik Beasley to that group, assuming the latter stays out of legal trouble, and that would objectively be the best shooting team this franchise has ever had. Their catch-and-shoot numbers last year speak to their lethality from the perimeter.

Towns: 104-251 (41.4 3P%)
Beasley: 95-230 (41.3 3P%)
Markkanen: 118-291 (40.5 3P%)
Russell: 59-151 (39.1 3P%)
Prince: 41-105 (39.0 3P%)
McDaniels: 67-182 (36.8 3P%)
Reid: 60-168 (35.7 3P%)

As a result of the improved outside shooting, I would expect this team to be even better that we currently project in the win-loss column.

It's also worth noting that a sign-and-trade for Markkanen does not signal that Minnesota would be out on bringing Jarred Vanderbilt back. He's an ideal backup four and has statistical success when paired with Towns and Edwards. I trust Chris Finch would be flexible and creative in the many lineup combinations he could put together with that group of talent. Talent. That's the idea here. Keep adding highly-talented players and we'll figure out the fit later.

I'm not sure I would call Markkanen an elite shooter and I will say why and you can say what your thoughts are. Last season he shot the ball well but overall he is a 36.6% 3 point shooter which is ok. I saw something about him being a very good catch and shoot guy but idk if that was career or just last season.

I do agree with you Cam there is a possibility of Lauri improving as a player including as a defender. My thing is how much would I pay to bank on that improvement or what he might be even if he just is what he is.

I agree that Lauri Markkanen isn't an elite shooter, monster. I think there's a small group of those that I would even consider "elite" and most of them are able to shoot off the dribble. That's not Markkanen's game, but I do think he's somewhere in the tier below that after his 2020-2021 campaign. Consider that he made 2.3 3P out of his 5.8 3PA last year, or 40.2-percent, but that was also in just under 26 minutes per game. Those numbers are a lot more impressive than at first glance.

His career three-point percentage is slightly decreased because of an outlier year in 2019-2020. Is he closer to the 34.4-percent shooter that year or the 37.3-percent shooter in his other three seasons combined? I think we could agree that he's a player you don't want to leave alone behind the three-point line whatsoever, which is essentially what I was getting at.

Camden0916 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:If the Bulls demand a future 1st round pick as part of a sign-and-trade for Markkanen, then Rosas should pass on the deal and move on to something else. I'd feel differently if he were a one-way defensive stalwart and durable. But he's neither and not worth giving up another 1st round pick.

That's a fair stance to have, Lip. I see the 24-year old Lauri Markkanen as a player that would be worth a highly-protected first-round pick in the event that Minnesota would be dumping roughly $10-13-million of expiring contracts on the Chicago Bulls. Of course, I would also expect that protection to trigger in a year leaving the Bulls with a second-round pick or pick(s) instead.

The prospect of having at least Karl-Anthony Towns, D'Angelo Russell, and Markkanen -- all deadly three-point shooters -- being able to spread the floor for a budding young star in Anthony Edwards is exciting and conducive to his development, I feel. Add Taurean Prince and Malik Beasley to that group, assuming the latter stays out of legal trouble, and that would objectively be the best shooting team this franchise has ever had. Their catch-and-shoot numbers last year speak to their lethality from the perimeter.

Towns: 104-251 (41.4 3P%)
Beasley: 95-230 (41.3 3P%)
Markkanen: 118-291 (40.5 3P%)
Russell: 59-151 (39.1 3P%)
Prince: 41-105 (39.0 3P%)
McDaniels: 67-182 (36.8 3P%)
Reid: 60-168 (35.7 3P%)

As a result of the improved outside shooting, I would expect this team to be even better that we currently project in the win-loss column.

It's also worth noting that a sign-and-trade for Markkanen does not signal that Minnesota would be out on bringing Jarred Vanderbilt back. He's an ideal backup four and has statistical success when paired with Towns and Edwards. I trust Chris Finch would be flexible and creative in the many lineup combinations he could put together with that group of talent. Talent. That's the idea here. Keep adding highly-talented players and we'll figure out the fit later.

I'm not sure I would call Markkanen an elite shooter and I will say why and you can say what your thoughts are. Last season he shot the ball well but overall he is a 36.6% 3 point shooter which is ok. I saw something about him being a very good catch and shoot guy but idk if that was career or just last season.

I do agree with you Cam there is a possibility of Lauri improving as a player including as a defender. My thing is how much would I pay to bank on that improvement or what he might be even if he just is what he is.

I agree that Lauri Markkanen isn't an elite shooter, monster. I think there's a small group of those that I would even consider "elite" and most of them are able to shoot off the dribble. That's not Markkanen's game, but I do think he's somewhere in the tier below that after his 2020-2021 campaign. Consider that he made 2.3 3P out of his 5.8 3PA last year, or 40.2-percent, but that was also in just under 26 minutes per game. Those numbers are a lot more impressive than at first glance.

His career three-point percentage is slightly decreased because of an outlier year in 2019-2020. Is he closer to the 34.4-percent shooter that year or the 37.3-percent shooter in his other three seasons combined? I think we could agree that he's a player you don't want to leave alone behind the three-point line whatsoever, which is essentially what I was getting at.

Thanks for the response. I would completely agree with you.

Space can be created by more than just having great shooters. Rim-rolling bigs that are good targets also create space because they often suck in a baseline defender, which in turn frees up a corner shooter. Where things tend to get mucked up is having two or more complete non-shooters on the floor. But one is perfectly fine IMO if that person can make himself a good target and finisher.

Q12543 wrote:Space can be created by more than just having great shooters. Rim-rolling bigs that are good targets also create space because they often suck in a baseline defender, which in turn frees up a corner shooter. Where things tend to get mucked up is having two or more complete non-shooters on the floor. But one is perfectly fine IMO if that person can make himself a good target and finisher.

Absolutely agree with this. I forget which former head coach turned broadcaster talked about this, but he explained to the national audience that floor spacing as most people think about it is around the perimeter. There's also the ability to space vertically by rim running, diving hard to the hoop after setting a screen, and by being a lob threat.

This is an area of Karl-Anthony Towns' game that I feel has been ignored or just not utilized enough. It's not that he isn't capable -- despite needing to set better screens -- but too often he pops out after setting the screen. There's likely several reasons for this, but I have to think one of them is because the paint is packed full of defenders sagging off their man because they're non-threats from three. Surround Towns with better shooters and I think we'd see him roll more, and when he's on the move towards the rim he's an incredibly tough matchup for anyone.

How about this a 2nd round pick and Layman for WCS? If you would do it what 2nd rounder would you be willing to give up? I would for sure do it for the 2022 Sixers/Nuggets pick but I would think Dallas would want something better. Would they do it for the Wizards 2022 pick? If so...

Think about it this way the Wolves would have essentially traded Rubio and Layman for Prince, WCS and some space under the tax to resign their own players. It's not a super sexy trade but I kinda like it. Still I'm not sure WCS is good enough to give up a decent 2nd round pick for and I am not sure what Dallas is looking for to get back for him if they are wanting to deal him away. Maybe they prefer to move Powell. I can't decide if I would want to pay him 11 million in 2022 or not. I probably don't although I can also see him being worth most of that salary.