Where do you stand? New Man? or Same old hot steak that's over priced?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Leadership does matter, the degree depends on the player and how leadership maximizes or limits the players and the overall group unity in following that leader. Ultimately the talent of the players and there individual will matter most but leadership no doubt plays a role.

A lot of posters are ridding the fence don't want to commit to one side or the other. I can't blame ya on that but in my original post I wanted to state what I was seeing and see how many others would join me in saying this is a changed player.

If you were forced to bet on him being a changed player or an overpriced max contract which side would you pick?

If I'm forced to declare now without any caveats or qualifiers, I still think he ends up as an overpriced max contract, albeit not as bad as the last couple years.

[Leado01]

I've seen it hinted a number of times -- not just on this forum, but other platforms -- so it clearly needs to be said.

You do not get to use your relationship with your boss/superior as an excuse for why you didn't do your job. There's an independent responsibility to do the job you signed up to do regardless of who overlooks your work. Andrew Wiggins failed to do his job the last couple years and the blame falls squarely on his shoulders.

What I'm seeing from some fans is a desire to use Tom Thibodeau as the excuse for Wiggins' individual development regressing. I don't know if that makes them feel better inside or if that's a ploy to build Wiggins up in their mind, but it's a fallacy.

Wiggins seems to be an improved player based on early returns, which is very good for all parties involved. He should get the large majority of the credit for that.

And when his past is discussed, the same line of thinking should be applied. You are ultimately responsible for your own career regardless of the direction it goes, up or down. Wiggins is a grown ass man. He can handle that.

I don't known what you do for work Cam, but I would argue (and have for the last 2 years) that Wiggins was doing what he was asked to do. Mostly that was take a corner and find space as the 4th option bailout on offense, and focus on defending. He was also asked to create in the 4th having not been involved in the offense in a meaningful way.

The idea that players, or workers, careers aren't dramatically impacted by leaderships marching orders is fully bunk.

Every year I know my company's strategy changes, and it's my job to execute on that strategy whether I believe it's to my direct benefit or not.

The math isn't that hard. Wiggins numbers were good, and increased during his first three years. They decreased as Thibs offense was implemented more fully.

I think Wiggins could end up averaging 28, 5, 4 and make the allstar team and you would hold your position that he's a bum.

Right now I'm happy with the way he's playing. His assists will likely decrease when Teague returns, but that doesn't mean he's a less effective player, it means he's doing the job he's being asked to do.

No coach in NBA history has asked a player to be significantly less effective.

Marching orders... Meh.

People continue to put entirely too much stock in NBA coaches. Whether he was just "told to stand in the corner" or not... Wiggins still took a team high 19 shots per game in year one under Thibs. He still led the team in shot attempts in year two... on a team with All NBA players Jimmy Butler and Karl Anthony Towns. And he took 16.6 attempts last season (#2).

Was it also part of Thibodeau's marching orders to shoot only 64% from the line?

For the 2,490th time... I don't want to be a fan/follower of a league where a frumpy middle-aged ogre in a suit has THAT much clout over who is good and who sucks and who wins games. NOBODY does. And guess what? That's not how the NBA works. It's never worked that way...

Players make plays. Good, engaged players make more good plays than bad players. Simple as that.

Are you implying that Adre Drummond could overcome Laurence Frank? That Rip Hamilton could overcome John Kuester?

You play within a system. I had 4 head coaches and my numbers were absolutely impacted by the systems those coaches ran and where I fit into that system.

You also practice, as a team and individually, based on coaching, to benefit that system.

Wiggins absolutely has to take responsibility for his poor performance under Thibs and directly in the aftermath. That being said, Thibs absolutely put Wiggins in a pisspoor position within the offense particularly when Butler came to town. He also worked, during practice, on giving Wiggins a skillset that mirrored Butler's (which was folly).

If I'm asking Jordan McLaughlin to work on his post up game, and work on his Rolling hook shot, I'm not helping him. But he's still responsible for his performance.

[Coolbreeze44]

There has been some very talented teams that never reached potential due to coaching. Doug Collins couldn't get Jordan and company over the top, but Phil came in and did it. Same with the clowns who could not get Kobe and Shaq rings. Again it was Phil who got them over the top. The Houston teams of the last few years have been extremely talented but have been held back by Dantoni. Put another coach on that team and they easily could have won a title. It takes a complete organization - owner - GM - Coach - Players. Players can't do it by themselves. Not even the Warriors could win until Kerr replaced Jackson.

[Tactical unit]

Good examples and well put CoolBreeze.

[Tactical unit]

Leadership does matter, the degree depends on the player and how leadership maximizes or limits the players and the overall group unity in following that leader. Ultimately the talent of the players and there individual will matter most but leadership no doubt plays a role.

A lot of posters are ridding the fence don't want to commit to one side or the other. I can't blame ya on that but in my original post I wanted to state what I was seeing and see how many others would join me in saying this is a changed player.

If you were forced to bet on him being a changed player or an overpriced max contract which side would you pick?

If I'm forced to declare now without any caveats or qualifiers, I still think he ends up as an overpriced max contract, albeit not as bad as the last couple years.

Man I hope your wrong, we really need him to play up to the level of that contract.

[Monster]

Saying Wiggins regression is all Thibs fault isn't fair to him or Wiggins (he should have blame too) for possible success or failure during the time Thibs was in charge. Let's see another 10-30 games before we give credit/fault either way.

Monster - Who on this Board or on this earth for that matter said it was all Thibs' fault??!!

See Cam's post Voicing frustration with folks on Twitter etc (not this board) that are basically laying the blame at Thibs feet. That's part of what I was speaking to.

[AbeVigodaLive]

There has been some very talented teams that never reached potential due to coaching. Doug Collins couldn't get Jordan and company over the top, but Phil came in and did it. Same with the clowns who could not get Kobe and Shaq rings. Again it was Phil who got them over the top. The Houston teams of the last few years have been extremely talented but have been held back by Dantoni. Put another coach on that team and they easily could have won a title. It takes a complete organization - owner - GM - Coach - Players. Players can't do it by themselves. Not even the Warriors could win until Kerr replaced Jackson.

Wait.

So now we're changing the goalposts from "shitty basketball stats from one player" to "team championships?" If so... we're arguing entirely different things.

Jordan was a superstar with Doug Collins, before Phil Jackson.
Shaq was a superstar with Matt Goukas, Brian Hill, Del Harris and even Kurt Rambis, before Phil Jackson.
Kobe was on his way to being a superstar before Phil Jackson.
Curry was a budding superstar with Mark Jackson.

All of those guys showed steady, consistent growth and improvement and even star stats and impact (even if you think the coaching sucked).



[Note: On a side note, I also disagree about your take on D'Antoni. Not being able to get Houston past the Warriors seems like an odd hill to die on.]

[Monster]

There has been some very talented teams that never reached potential due to coaching. Doug Collins couldn't get Jordan and company over the top, but Phil came in and did it. Same with the clowns who could not get Kobe and Shaq rings. Again it was Phil who got them over the top. The Houston teams of the last few years have been extremely talented but have been held back by Dantoni. Put another coach on that team and they easily could have won a title. It takes a complete organization - owner - GM - Coach - Players. Players can't do it by themselves. Not even the Warriors could win until Kerr replaced Jackson.

You bring up some good points. I was just thinking yesterday about how Pippen was a bit of a headcase. Keep in mind I also think he is one of the most versatile defenders of my lifetime and a hell of an all-around player but yeah I think coaching mattered for that team.

I disagree with you about D'antoni Holding back Houston but that's ok. :)

[AbeVigodaLive]

There has been some very talented teams that never reached potential due to coaching. Doug Collins couldn't get Jordan and company over the top, but Phil came in and did it. Same with the clowns who could not get Kobe and Shaq rings. Again it was Phil who got them over the top. The Houston teams of the last few years have been extremely talented but have been held back by Dantoni. Put another coach on that team and they easily could have won a title. It takes a complete organization - owner - GM - Coach - Players. Players can't do it by themselves. Not even the Warriors could win until Kerr replaced Jackson.

You bring up some good points. I was just thinking yesterday about how Pippen was a bit of a headcase. Keep in mind I also think he is one of the most versatile defenders of my lifetime and a hell of an all-around player but yeah I think coaching mattered for that team.

I disagree with you about D'antoni Holding back Houston but that's ok. :)

Pippen only had two seasons without Jackson.

Year 1: 8/4/2/46% in 20 mpg as a rookie.
Year 2: 14/6/4/48% in 33 mpg in year 2.

With Jackson...

Year 3: 17/7/5/49% in 38 mpg
Year 4: 18/7/6/52% in 37 mpg
Year 5: 21/8/7/51% in 39 mpg

Seems like a normal natural progression for a superstar player. Now, did Jackson know the strings to get superstars to buy in and win and all that? Sure. But that's not a situation anything remotely close to what Wiggins has had.



[Note: Furthermore... if you mean headcase = migraine game... that happened when Jackson was the Bulls coach.]

[thedoper]

Fun Stat. Andrew Wiggins is 10th in points in the paint so far this year. Last year he was 71st.