Black Friday in Brooklyn: Wolves vs. Nets GDT

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Since the jimmy trade, we have had the 3rd best defense in ther league. Small sample size, but thats still a 3rd of the season so far.

I think our defense can get even better after a pg trade because rose is unfairly put in a situation of guarding wings. And opposing teams go after him.

Good point, CC.

During that same span, the 6ers are 24th in defense :)

[Lipoli390]

Since the jimmy trade, we have had the 3rd best defense in ther league. Small sample size, but thats still a 3rd of the season so far.

I think our defense can get even better after a pg trade because rose is unfairly put in a situation of guarding wings. And opposing teams go after him.

Good point, CC.

During that same span, the 6ers are 24th in defense :)

I love that stat! Not that I'm petty, but I guess I am. :)

[WildWolf2813]

My much too late game review:

Save for a couple of sections in the crowd, the place was half filled. Not sure if you could tell on TV. Crowd had great enthusiasm for hometown boy Taj Gibson and definitely Derrick Rose also. Rose has become such a major human interest story in the NBA, fans don't even care if he's in Minnesota doing it. This may seem like a diss to Wolves fans, but honestly, fans are just happy he's doing well no matter where it is. Rose was and I guess still is that alternative to James and Durant to a lesser extent that fans loved at his peak. Rose played very well today and while we wish it was Jones doing this or some other young guy, Rose is pretty much filling a major void that we've been complaining about for a long time.

as for Gorgui: He didn't play well. He tried. It wasn't effort related, but I lay his struggles on two people: Towns and Thibodeau. If KAT could play without fouling, Gorgui wouldn't play so much. Towns gave us a big enough boost that he wasn't an overall negative today, and BK lost simply because they failed to keep applying pressure on Towns and attack the basket at will. Down 4, DInwiddie tried to be a hero and shoot a 3 over Towns, missed and that essentially did it for them. Towns is not gonna get the benefit of the doubt anytime soon with refs and he needs to realize that before he finds it pointless to try on defense. Thibs should have realized it's a 12pm game and the team was lacking in energy. He essentially ran plays as if KAT was still out there with Dieng reaping the benefits. Plan A might have been to give Saric an extended look especially with Jarrett Allen in foul trouble but Saric wasn't great, so use Okogie. The team won, so that's important, but today highlighted how stubborn Thibs can be. Okogie and Tolliver at least tried to keep their spirits up on the bench.


As for Wiggins, today's MVP was Covington simply because it felt like Wiggins was mimicking Covington defensively. Brooklyn had a balanced attack today offensively, but Wiggins stopped looking for his shot and just focused on trying on defense and made it tough for guys to get shots off from outside. He was +17 today. Even on a day where he was 9/2/2, he didn't hurt the team, and that's more than I can say for some games where he scores 20/3/2, yet he's a minus. Defense is contagious and RoCo has the virus.

And as I mentioned earlier, side note: Maven who used to wrestle, works for the Nets in promotions apparently. That was a kinda cool surprise. You never know who you run into at games I guess. All in all, Wolves got the W, I'll do this again in February when the Wolves go to MSG.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Alot of people seem to be ripping on wiggs after the last game and calling him to be moved to the bench. If he doesn't drop big points, hes played bad or he drops big points, he didn't play defense.

I also think people are underestimating the impact kat has been having since the butler trade. Kat has been getting into more foul trouble, but i think that's him being active and trying to make the right play rather than simply hunting for rebounds and block shots.

https://stats.nba.com/game/0021800265/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Alot of people seem to be ripping on wiggs after the last game and calling him to be moved to the bench. If he doesn't drop big points, hes played bad or he drops big points, he didn't play defense.

I also think people are underestimating the impact kat has been having since the butler trade. Kat has been getting into more foul trouble, but i think that's him being active and trying to make the right play rather than simply hunting for rebounds and block shots.

https://stats.nba.com/game/0021800265/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

Surprisingly good numbers on both sides of the ball by Wig in the Brooklyn game an stats.nba.com...not what I would have thought in watching it. It's especially surprising to me that his offensive rating is so much better than Rose's...Rose looked brilliant to me while Wig seemed disinterested. So much for stats, I guess.
I agree that Wig seems much more focused and effective on defense this year. I know most here don't share my view on this, and of course neither does The Smartest Coach in the Room, but I find Wig so much more effective on defense when he is matched up against a typically sized SG rather than a typically sized SF. He's quick and athletic enough to stay with almost all SGs, and the 3 or 4 inch height advantage he often enjoys (the average NBA SG height is only 6'4.2") really seems to make a difference. Speaking from personal experience, I always struggled when matched up with defenders who were 4 inches taller than me.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Alot of people seem to be ripping on wiggs after the last game and calling him to be moved to the bench. If he doesn't drop big points, hes played bad or he drops big points, he didn't play defense.

I also think people are underestimating the impact kat has been having since the butler trade. Kat has been getting into more foul trouble, but i think that's him being active and trying to make the right play rather than simply hunting for rebounds and block shots.

https://stats.nba.com/game/0021800265/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

Surprisingly good numbers on both sides of the ball by Wig in the Brooklyn game an stats.nba.com...not what I would have thought in watching it. It's especially surprising to me that his offensive rating is so much better than Rose's...Rose looked brilliant to me while Wig seemed disinterested. So much for stats, I guess.
I agree that Wig seems much more focused and effective on defense this year. I know most here don't share my view on this, and of course neither does The Smartest Coach in the Room, but I find Wig so much more effective on defense when he is matched up against a typically sized SG rather than a typically sized SF. He's quick and athletic enough to stay with almost all SGs, and the 3 or 4 inch height advantage he often enjoys (the average NBA SG height is only 6'4.2") really seems to make a difference. Speaking from personal experience, I always struggled when matched up with defenders who were 4 inches taller than me.

I got it from reading this from canis, they will do a better job of explaining roses impact during the brooklyn game:

. Sometimes a player has a truly awful effect on team play while still managing to put up a fine individual stat line through failing to do all of the things that don't get captured by their box score stats, Yesterday quite plainly was one of those days for Rose and, yes, if you didn't see it and can't process it from his box score that's on you and not on anyone else.

Just take a gander at the advanced box score to figure this one out

Also the Drive stats

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=11%2F23%2F2018&TeamID=1610612750&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

So how exactly was Rose so, fantastically awful yesterday. Well, lets start with the side of the ball where he has been consistently bad on because that needs no specific individual game commentary. Rose is, evenin his comeback year still among the leagues absolute worst defenders. Nothing new to see in this one as he sported a second worst on the team D Rating of 113.8.

Now let's look at the drive stats. Rose drove on 18 possessions and hit on 3 of 8 2 point FG attempts. He failed to get to the line on any of those attempts. Further of his 8 passes out of those drives many of them left his teammates screwed by his earlier decision making. As he pivoted around on another failed drive he made several passes that forced a highly contested late shot clock attempt and his 8 passes resulted in 8 missed FGs. He also had two TOs in there.

And really this is the story of the game: Rose's horrible defense and over reliance on hero ball drives were the only factor besides Towns foul trouble that kept this one close.. On Roses 18 drives the Wolves ended the game with a Robust 0.33 points per possession. 18 possession to such a disastrous outcome is especially bad when the team as a whole was absolutely crushing it offensively. Someone who has the time can do the moving average work but given the roughly 100 possessions and the 1.17 points per possession we put up for the game it isn't hard to see that in the non-drive possessions the Wolves tore the game up.

[Monster]

I'll take what we have gotten from Dieng the last 2 games. He has been a good shooter for many years he is gonna start hitting those shots and he hass been taking more of them from a few feet in than he used to. Should he roll more? sure but wid open nobody there shots I don't mind him taking them. I think he is overall been a positive as a bench guy. I think he has done more good than harm although the bench was not good the first half of that Nets game. I think he may have been part of that but he helped in the 2nd half.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

You know what is really dusgusting? Wiggys numbers on pull up 2's. Hes shooting 26%. 26%! That alone is killing his efficiency numbers. Hes got good percentages from every where else: pull up 3's, catch and shoot 3's, post ups, attacks at the rim, even fts.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Alot of people seem to be ripping on wiggs after the last game and calling him to be moved to the bench. If he doesn't drop big points, hes played bad or he drops big points, he didn't play defense.

I also think people are underestimating the impact kat has been having since the butler trade. Kat has been getting into more foul trouble, but i think that's him being active and trying to make the right play rather than simply hunting for rebounds and block shots.

https://stats.nba.com/game/0021800265/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

Surprisingly good numbers on both sides of the ball by Wig in the Brooklyn game an stats.nba.com...not what I would have thought in watching it. It's especially surprising to me that his offensive rating is so much better than Rose's...Rose looked brilliant to me while Wig seemed disinterested. So much for stats, I guess.
I agree that Wig seems much more focused and effective on defense this year. I know most here don't share my view on this, and of course neither does The Smartest Coach in the Room, but I find Wig so much more effective on defense when he is matched up against a typically sized SG rather than a typically sized SF. He's quick and athletic enough to stay with almost all SGs, and the 3 or 4 inch height advantage he often enjoys (the average NBA SG height is only 6'4.2") really seems to make a difference. Speaking from personal experience, I always struggled when matched up with defenders who were 4 inches taller than me.

I got it from reading this from canis, they will do a better job of explaining roses impact during the brooklyn game:

. Sometimes a player has a truly awful effect on team play while still managing to put up a fine individual stat line through failing to do all of the things that don't get captured by their box score stats, Yesterday quite plainly was one of those days for Rose and, yes, if you didn't see it and can't process it from his box score that's on you and not on anyone else.

Just take a gander at the advanced box score to figure this one out

Also the Drive stats

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=11%2F23%2F2018&TeamID=1610612750&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

So how exactly was Rose so, fantastically awful yesterday. Well, lets start with the side of the ball where he has been consistently bad on because that needs no specific individual game commentary. Rose is, evenin his comeback year still among the leagues absolute worst defenders. Nothing new to see in this one as he sported a second worst on the team D Rating of 113.8.

Now let's look at the drive stats. Rose drove on 18 possessions and hit on 3 of 8 2 point FG attempts. He failed to get to the line on any of those attempts. Further of his 8 passes out of those drives many of them left his teammates screwed by his earlier decision making. As he pivoted around on another failed drive he made several passes that forced a highly contested late shot clock attempt and his 8 passes resulted in 8 missed FGs. He also had two TOs in there.

And really this is the story of the game: Rose's horrible defense and over reliance on hero ball drives were the only factor besides Towns foul trouble that kept this one close.. On Roses 18 drives the Wolves ended the game with a Robust 0.33 points per possession. 18 possession to such a disastrous outcome is especially bad when the team as a whole was absolutely crushing it offensively. Someone who has the time can do the moving average work but given the roughly 100 possessions and the 1.17 points per possession we put up for the game it isn't hard to see that in the non-drive possessions the Wolves tore the game up.

Really interesting stuff, c-c...thx for that. I admit I'm in full denial about Rose because he's so much fun to watch, but I was also aware of the comeback Brooklyn made in the 4th when he was on the court. I admire his effort on both sides of the ball, but the advanced stats tell us that you need more than effort. Sometimes on defense effort can look really good, but result in your being way out of position.

[Monster]

Alot of people seem to be ripping on wiggs after the last game and calling him to be moved to the bench. If he doesn't drop big points, hes played bad or he drops big points, he didn't play defense.

I also think people are underestimating the impact kat has been having since the butler trade. Kat has been getting into more foul trouble, but i think that's him being active and trying to make the right play rather than simply hunting for rebounds and block shots.

https://stats.nba.com/game/0021800265/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1

Surprisingly good numbers on both sides of the ball by Wig in the Brooklyn game an stats.nba.com...not what I would have thought in watching it. It's especially surprising to me that his offensive rating is so much better than Rose's...Rose looked brilliant to me while Wig seemed disinterested. So much for stats, I guess.
I agree that Wig seems much more focused and effective on defense this year. I know most here don't share my view on this, and of course neither does The Smartest Coach in the Room, but I find Wig so much more effective on defense when he is matched up against a typically sized SG rather than a typically sized SF. He's quick and athletic enough to stay with almost all SGs, and the 3 or 4 inch height advantage he often enjoys (the average NBA SG height is only 6'4.2") really seems to make a difference. Speaking from personal experience, I always struggled when matched up with defenders who were 4 inches taller than me.

I got it from reading this from canis, they will do a better job of explaining roses impact during the brooklyn game:

. Sometimes a player has a truly awful effect on team play while still managing to put up a fine individual stat line through failing to do all of the things that don't get captured by their box score stats, Yesterday quite plainly was one of those days for Rose and, yes, if you didn't see it and can't process it from his box score that's on you and not on anyone else.

Just take a gander at the advanced box score to figure this one out

Also the Drive stats

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=11%2F23%2F2018&TeamID=1610612750&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

So how exactly was Rose so, fantastically awful yesterday. Well, lets start with the side of the ball where he has been consistently bad on because that needs no specific individual game commentary. Rose is, evenin his comeback year still among the leagues absolute worst defenders. Nothing new to see in this one as he sported a second worst on the team D Rating of 113.8.

Now let's look at the drive stats. Rose drove on 18 possessions and hit on 3 of 8 2 point FG attempts. He failed to get to the line on any of those attempts. Further of his 8 passes out of those drives many of them left his teammates screwed by his earlier decision making. As he pivoted around on another failed drive he made several passes that forced a highly contested late shot clock attempt and his 8 passes resulted in 8 missed FGs. He also had two TOs in there.

And really this is the story of the game: Rose's horrible defense and over reliance on hero ball drives were the only factor besides Towns foul trouble that kept this one close.. On Roses 18 drives the Wolves ended the game with a Robust 0.33 points per possession. 18 possession to such a disastrous outcome is especially bad when the team as a whole was absolutely crushing it offensively. Someone who has the time can do the moving average work but given the roughly 100 possessions and the 1.17 points per possession we put up for the game it isn't hard to see that in the non-drive possessions the Wolves tore the game up.

Really interesting stuff, c-c...thx for that. I admit I'm in full denial about Rose because he's so much fun to watch, but I was also aware of the comeback Brooklyn made in the 4th when he was on the court. I admire his effort on both sides of the ball, but the advanced stats tell us that you need more than effort. Sometimes on defense effort can look really good, but result in your being way out of position.

Some interesting numbers. Personally I think Rose was actually good in Brooklyn. I'm not really buying all those numbers although interesting from one game. Now defensively Rose's man defense isn't very good. Is he a flat out liability? Idk if I would go quite that far. I think his team defense has some value. He makes some good rotations and gets in there for some help plays and gets up and contests bigs on the boards and sometimes even at the rim. Teague has been putting more effort and energy on the defensive end the last few games. I'd take his defense overall over Rose but he still isn't particularly good. Generally speaking Rose's defense isn't some sort of massive problem. He also seems to know when he screws up in what rotation he should have made.

Are the Wolves over reliant on him at times offensively? Yeah. Does he just look for his shot too much at times? Sure. It's hard to complain too much when the guy is putting up those points and hitting a very high percentage of his shots. The idea that Rose isn't helping the Wolves offensively seems kinda ridiculous especially when you consider the other Perimeter players on the roster. There isn't a better shot creator on the roster I don't think there is any way you can argue that watching the games. Can he keep up his success? I'm looking forward to finding out.