Minnesota Sports Forum

Good risk/reward signing but l too fear he'll take minutes away from the younger guys. I'm sure he and Rose will play the most they can.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:
I don't know....every season seemingly lots of folks here claim our bench is going to be good and then it ends up being a problem. I honestly don't know if this bench will be good or not. Tyus and Tolliver I feel pretty good about, but otherwise, there are a lot of question marks. Rose has been a trainwreck the last few years - he could be as bad as Jamaal Crawford was for us last year. Nunnally was a good signing on paper, but the NBA is different from Euroleague. Dieng was awful last year. Deng basically hasn't played in two seasons. The other guys are greenhorns - rookies almost always suck....especially Minnesota rookies.

Deng started in 49 games and played 1486 minutes in his first season with Lakers, which is more minutes than anyone except Crawford got last year from Wolves bench players. Even tough he was bad compared to his 18 million salary, he still posted positive plus/minus numbers that season.

The thing that I like in Wolves bench is that they have some shooters in Tolliver and Nunnally that will improve effectiveness of Rose a lot. Unlike Crawford, Rose has in last couple of year always attacked the basket. During last two years more than 40% of his shot attempts have been within 3 feet from basket. Having some outside shooter playing with him will make him much more efficient finisher in his drives. Vice versa Rose's drive and dish ability should get some open looks for Tolliver and Nunnally.

Ugh, my fear is just that with our bench....it becomes a Rose-centric isofest. Even when he was good, he wasn't an efficient scorer by today's standards. Thibs can't help but play him because the bench doesn't have other shot creators and Thibs lacks the imagination to create good shots with player and ball movement.

I like the Tolliver and Nunnally signings too, but I would feel much better about our bench if Derrick Rose never saw the light day and we had someone like Teague as our 6th man shot creator. Jones is a better fit with the starters anyway....

Dane Moore is a guy I've been paying more attention to his work and started following him recently. He also has a podcast and on there it was discussed how Rose last season was adjusting to trying to fit in and not be the man anymore. It was an interesting angle and it was put in a way I hadn't quite considered before. I feel hopeful in the exact way Mikkeman laid out but Q's scenario is very possible too. Rose is a wildcard and is the one big upside play that Thibs and Layden have done this offseason where every other move seems like one that can fit into the roster (and quite frankly almost any roster).

I just don't get this take. How is a 30-year old injury-riddled guard well past his prime give us any upside? Go look at his On/Off numbers from the last few seasons. It's a consistent theme: His team is worse when he plays; better when he doesn't play. I don't expect that to change with us.

BizarroJerry wrote:Good risk/reward signing but l too fear he'll take minutes away from the younger guys. I'm sure he and Rose will play the most they can.

As long as our goal is to win games, I'm not sure this is a bad thing. We have seen past seasons where our rookies are force-fed minutes to the detriment of the team. If we ever had a front office that knew how to draft, may be I'd be more sympathetic toward this take. But our history shows that rookies typically weigh our team down when they are on the floor. This is why we have the Iowa G-league team!

Q12543 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:Good risk/reward signing but l too fear he'll take minutes away from the younger guys. I'm sure he and Rose will play the most they can.

As long as our goal is to win games, I'm not sure this is a bad thing. We have seen past seasons where our rookies are force-fed minutes to the detriment of the team. If we ever had a front office that knew how to draft, may be I'd be more sympathetic toward this take. But our history shows that rookies typically weigh our team down when they are on the floor. This is why we have the Iowa G-league team!

Yeah, I just want Thibs to put the guys on the floor who give us the best chance of winning...minutes for our rookies is not a priority for me unless they really deserve it. If Deng and Rose are contributing more than Okogie and Diop, they deserve to be on the court more. A lot of development for rookies comes from practices and watching the vets from the bench as much as playing time.

The problem is that Thibs doesn't make good lineup decisions IMO. When and where he uses his bench has always baffled me, and seems to be consistently at variance with advanced statistics. I think this roster is talented and balanced enough that they can win a lot of games and challenge for home court advantage in the first round. It's a roster Thibs has formed, and he has no excuses for not having the right guys. I'm skeptical that he can make good rotation decisions, but if he does, this team could be very good.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Q12543 wrote:
I don't know....every season seemingly lots of folks here claim our bench is going to be good and then it ends up being a problem. I honestly don't know if this bench will be good or not. Tyus and Tolliver I feel pretty good about, but otherwise, there are a lot of question marks. Rose has been a trainwreck the last few years - he could be as bad as Jamaal Crawford was for us last year. Nunnally was a good signing on paper, but the NBA is different from Euroleague. Dieng was awful last year. Deng basically hasn't played in two seasons. The other guys are greenhorns - rookies almost always suck....especially Minnesota rookies.

Deng started in 49 games and played 1486 minutes in his first season with Lakers, which is more minutes than anyone except Crawford got last year from Wolves bench players. Even tough he was bad compared to his 18 million salary, he still posted positive plus/minus numbers that season.

The thing that I like in Wolves bench is that they have some shooters in Tolliver and Nunnally that will improve effectiveness of Rose a lot. Unlike Crawford, Rose has in last couple of year always attacked the basket. During last two years more than 40% of his shot attempts have been within 3 feet from basket. Having some outside shooter playing with him will make him much more efficient finisher in his drives. Vice versa Rose's drive and dish ability should get some open looks for Tolliver and Nunnally.

Ugh, my fear is just that with our bench....it becomes a Rose-centric isofest. Even when he was good, he wasn't an efficient scorer by today's standards. Thibs can't help but play him because the bench doesn't have other shot creators and Thibs lacks the imagination to create good shots with player and ball movement.

I like the Tolliver and Nunnally signings too, but I would feel much better about our bench if Derrick Rose never saw the light day and we had someone like Teague as our 6th man shot creator. Jones is a better fit with the starters anyway....

Dane Moore is a guy I've been paying more attention to his work and started following him recently. He also has a podcast and on there it was discussed how Rose last season was adjusting to trying to fit in and not be the man anymore. It was an interesting angle and it was put in a way I hadn't quite considered before. I feel hopeful in the exact way Mikkeman laid out but Q's scenario is very possible too. Rose is a wildcard and is the one big upside play that Thibs and Layden have done this offseason where every other move seems like one that can fit into the roster (and quite frankly almost any roster).

I just don't get this take. How is a 30-year old injury-riddled guard well past his prime give us any upside? Go look at his On/Off numbers from the last few seasons. It's a consistent theme: His team is worse when he plays; better when he doesn't play. I don't expect that to change with us.

Part of my take was assuming what Thibs believes about Rose. Lets keep in mind upside for Rose is measured in terms of signing a guy as a vet min guy becoming a worthwhile rotation player. The numbers fromt he last couple years are not pretty but IF he can stay healthy I believe there is still something there. Regardless of the 7-10 from 3 in the playoffs those 5 games he showed something. Trust me I am not getting my hopes up to high but I'm not dismissing the possibility he becomes a helpful player going forward...possibly beyond this year and likely for cheap.

longstrangetrip wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:Good risk/reward signing but l too fear he'll take minutes away from the younger guys. I'm sure he and Rose will play the most they can.

As long as our goal is to win games, I'm not sure this is a bad thing. We have seen past seasons where our rookies are force-fed minutes to the detriment of the team. If we ever had a front office that knew how to draft, may be I'd be more sympathetic toward this take. But our history shows that rookies typically weigh our team down when they are on the floor. This is why we have the Iowa G-league team!

Yeah, I just want Thibs to put the guys on the floor who give us the best chance of winning...minutes for our rookies is not a priority for me unless they really deserve it. If Deng and Rose are contributing more than Okogie and Diop, they deserve to be on the court more. A lot of development for rookies comes from practices and watching the vets from the bench as much as playing time.

The problem is that Thibs doesn't make good lineup decisions IMO. When and where he uses his bench has always baffled me, and seems to be consistently at variance with advanced statistics. I think this roster is talented and balanced enough that they can win a lot of games and challenge for home court advantage in the first round. It's a roster Thibs has formed, and he has no excuses for not having the right guys. I'm skeptical that he can make good rotation decisions, but if he does, this team could be very good.

LST I do think the guys he has at his disposal this year make more sense both individually and how they fit together. Thibs sticks to his rotations which can be alright but I think more mixing and matching needs to happen. Its worth remembering that he changed things up partway through his first season playing Lavine with the bench quite a bit which was pretty effective for everyone. The bench might end up sucking again like it has for years which it comes to the Wolves (and yes Thibs can shoulder some of that blame while he has been here) but if a couple guys that are less known are actually effective from the jump...like you said better rotations and contributions could be very positive.

Worth noting and a word of caution. Bazz was having an awesome training camp and preseason and then went out and sucked although I still think he was trying to be a better team player.

I will say I don't think Deng is locked inot as many minutes as many people seem to believe. Its been reported he was given no assurances and as much as Thibs has the rep of not playing young guys he did pick Okogie and KBD and I think he will find some times to get them in if they are actually ready. There are going to be guys injured and foul trouble. There will be opportunities for guys to contribute. PG is a low key depth concern if one of Rose (he will miss some games) Tyus or Teague is out for a while we would be another injury away from having 1 healthy PG and calling up Jared Terrell who I like but have no idea if he can help ever much less this year. Maybe Okogie can guard PGs which other players handle the ball.

LST, Thibs did make some adjustments to his lineup/bench after the first couple months of the season. He pretty much sat Bazz on the pine for good while also starting to play Bjelica (a little) more. Then he started staggering his starters after doing more of a hockey shift to start the season. Upon making those changes, we actually did start playing better. Then Butler got hurt......

Q12543 wrote:LST, Thibs did make some adjustments to his lineup/bench after the first couple months of the season. He pretty much sat Bazz on the pine for good while also starting to play Bjelica (a little) more. Then he started staggering his starters after doing more of a hockey shift to start the season. Upon making those changes, we actually did start playing better. Then Butler got hurt......

I wasn't a fan of the hockey rotations at all. Simply put one if not two of Butler, KAT and Wiggins need to be in the game at all times to keep the offense going.

I saw enough of Tyus Jones and Derrick Rose playing together to realise that that isn't a good pairing. I could see Teague and Rose playing stints together though and think they compliment each other better. I'd give Tyus more burn playing next to Wiggins and Butler, playing the facilitator role.

I'd like to see James Nunally get 10 - 12 minutes a game. His ability to shoot the 3 ball efficiently will be huge for our wing rotation. Tolliver backs up Taj. Gorgui backs up KAT.

Q12543 wrote:
I just don't get this take. How is a 30-year old injury-riddled guard well past his prime give us any upside? Go look at his On/Off numbers from the last few seasons. It's a consistent theme: His team is worse when he plays; better when he doesn't play. I don't expect that to change with us.

If you look his on/off numbers in last 'whole' season in New York, they were not that bad. In fact he had second highest net rating among all starters after Porzingis. So it looks like that his overall net rating was bad mainly because he played with other bad players. I'm also somehow hopeful about his efficiency. Obviously he hasn't been super efficient scorer ever but just one year ago, he posted TS% of 53, which was pretty close to his career high and higher than our bench unit go to guys Wiggins (played pretty often alone starter with bench) or Crawford had last season. Rose is also better finding open shots for other players than either of those guys, so I'm pretty sure that if he stays healthy our bench play improves clearly compared last year.

Woo Hoo! I've got the internet again! Time to waste some time arguing about how Thibs will distribute 12-16 minutes to a backup forward!

Here's my two cents:

Deng potentially fits a need and there's not much opportunity cost, so why not?

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[*] He's a big question mark because he hasn't played in a couple years, but even if he's a diminished player, he's a diminished versatile big who can defend at least a couple positions and has always been a hard-working professional. That's not bad for essentially a vet. min. contract. We've been a bad defensive team other than Butler and Taj, so having another solid defender, especially on the bench, will help a ton. Our bench defense was TERRIBLE last year. Deng could help that even if his offense has fallen off a cliff. We don't really need offense. KAT, Taj, and Butler are our most efficient offensive options, so we should be getting more shots for them anyway, and off the bench, Tyus and Tolliver are efficient, and even Gorgui can score off the bench when needed. Deng has never been a guy who tried to do more offensively than his efficiency suggested was logical. So at worst, he's not going to hurt us offensively, and could help us a lot on the defensive end. Plus, he's always been a pretty decent passer, so he might actually help the ball keep swinging offensively when the bench unit is out, which we also need.

[*] I'd rather see Tolliver get a lot more minutes because of his outside shooting, and I expect that to happen given the loss of Belly and the contracts these guys signed. Tolliver is probably still going to get a lot more minutes despite the Deng signing.

[*] I'm curious about Diop and this will probably limit his minutes, but c'mon, Thibs wasn't going to play him a ton anyway (something we can all fault him on somewhat). And if we have an injury to a big or even to Butler, Wiggins, or Okogie, having Deng on the bench gives us depth to be able to take an injury in stride a bit better.

[*] Dieng, well, I've always liked Gorgui but he wasn't great last year, and the league is getting more perimeter oriented, which Deng could help us defend, even if he's a bit older. Deng will likely take some of G's minutes, but that's not really a problem, in my view.

[*] I get that people think it's a sign of Thibs' limited view that he keeps signing his own players, but there is a potential benefit that these guys have played together, so they will be able to fit together much more quickly and easily than just signing random players. To me, that built-in chemistry and familiarity is a plus.
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