Thibs is biggest Fraud since Madoff

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Boy, if head coaches got canned after a poor season record-wise, Bill Belichick wouldn't have created a dynasty in New England. 5-11 record his first year there in 2000? What a loser!

Gregg Popovich went 17-47 his first year in San Antonio. What a bum. Guy could only coach his team to win under 27% of their games? Trash. Glad they got rid of him... Wait, no, they turned into a dynasty.

Pretty extreme examples, I'll concede, but Tom Thibodeau's track record of success should not continue to go ignored like it does here so often. He is the only man in this organization that has shown he can win in this league. Damn near everyone else is closer to being a proven loser. I wonder who I'll side with: the coach who's won over 60% of the games he's coached or the roster full of 20-something's that haven't won anything at this level. Tough call.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Belichek had a rookie Tom Brady that hardly played and Pop had David Robinson play only 6 games due to injury. The following year they drafted Tim Duncan and he along with a healthy Robinson led them to 56 wins in his first full season coaching the team.

Not good examples.

Thibs on the other hand was handed a healthy roster, a full training camp, and all the key pieces supposedly already in place with the "best young roster in the NBA". What's he done? Led them to a record that is on pace to barely crack 20 wins. Again, this is with NO serious injury issues unlike most other teams we've played against!

I by no means am suggesting that Thibs should be fired, nor is it even practical to think Glen would do that. But to say he has zero accountability for the performance of this team is just as outrageous as saying he has 100% of the accountability. Neither extreme holds water in my opinion.

[kekgeek]

Let's get one thing straight. Firing a coach after 1 season because it was a bad season is what terrible organizations do. That's some Sacramento Kings shit right there and it shouldn't even be a thought in anyone's head of you ever want this team to get back to respectability.

Maybe, but there was the Les Steckel case.

Bad organizations make poor personnel decisions -- both players and coaches. Good organizations can make bad personnel decisions occasionally, but they quickly recognize and rectify those decisions. It's silly to stick with something that doesn't work because of some theory that changing it would be what losing organizations do. Les Steckel is a good example of moving on quickly from something that clearly didn't work. If we end up with 25-29 wins this season, I'd say that things aren't working under Thibs. If it were me I'd move on. But this is Glen Taylor so I'm sure he'll stay the course. Then as things continue to sputter, he'll make a change a year or two later. That's what losing organizations do. They make bad decisions then stick too long with what doesn't work.

Sticking with a coach for more than 1 season isn't too long. How many guys is Thibs playing that he put on the team? Dunn, Aldrich, Rush. A rookie and two limited bench players. Everybody else that's playing was inherited. It's not his team yet and he deserves more than 1 year to make his team. What makes you think the team will take a leap under a 4th coach in as many years? That'd be wasting another half-season on adjusting to the new coach. Good teams are built on continuity. Something we haven't had for 3 straight years now and won't have if you bring in someone else next year. He has money. He has assets. Let's see what he does this summer and how we do next year and you can fire him then if we are still terrible. Too many people expected plug and play with a bunch of young players. Plug and play only works with tenured players who know how to play basketball correctly. It's pretty obvious our guys have a long ways to go in that category.

Agreed but I will add that it's been 4 straight years of no continuity not 3. Dieng and Bazz have played for a different coach every single NBA season 4 years in a row. Let that sink in. People are frustrated and rightly so but it seems to me Thibs and Layden are not taking shortcuts they are trying to build something here. That can take time. If the Wolves moved on From Thibs after his season only winning 25-29 wins they would be just like the Sacramento Kings and...we don't want to be emulating that franchise anytime soon.

Steph Curry played for three different coaches in his first three years and has had a total of five head coaches. That didn't seem to slow him or the Warriors down too much!

Pretty bad example. Currys 1st three years 26 wins 36 wins and then 23 wins (13 games worse in mark Jackson 1st year) then won 47 in Jackson's second year. Your example gives more weight to the person you are arguing with

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

kekgeek, Curry was hurt that year and only played 26 games. Their most reliable starter was Dorrell Wright, who was able to make it through 61 games. Injuries matter....a lot. The following year (Mark Jackson's 2nd), they won 47 games as you mention. It's amazing how that correlated with having good health!

The bottom line is that their setback in Jackson's first year wasn't due to "adjustments to a new system", but rather a bunch of injuries.

Again, I'm not taking sides here, just stating that I think both Thibs AND the players deserve blame for the debacle this season.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Belichek had a rookie Tom Brady that hardly played and Pop had David Robinson play only 6 games due to injury. The following year they drafted Tim Duncan and he along with a healthy Robinson led them to 56 wins in his first full season coaching the team.

Not good examples.

Thibs on the other hand was handed a healthy roster, a full training camp, and all the key pieces supposedly already in place with the "best young roster in the NBA". What's he done? Led them to a record that is on pace to barely crack 20 wins. Again, this is with NO serious injury issues unlike most other teams we've played against!

I by no means am suggesting that Thibs should be fired, nor is it even practical to think Glen would do that. But to say he has zero accountability for the performance of this team is just as outrageous as saying he has 100% of the accountability. Neither extreme holds water in my opinion.

Yeah, this is where I am too. Thibs should not be fired (of course, I didn't think Sam should have been fired...I believe in continuity more than x's and o's), and I think we all know that he will not be...at least for a couple years. And while I see him as the biggest negative factor in our extreme negative turnaround this year (I frankly don't see how anyone can not see that), as others have said, there is plenty of blame to go around. Thibs has proven that he can coach a veteran team in this league, now he needs to prove that he is flexible enough to also be successful with a young team with a completely different make-up. So far any objective viewer would have to say he hasn't shown us that he is up to the job, but his past history of success leaves room for some optimism. I just don't see it happening without some change on Thibs' part though. Let's hope he is smart enough to see this.

[Wile E Coyote [enjin:17432808]]

I don't buy that Thibs is the primary problem here. It wouldn't surprise me if a more positive approach would yield better results, but he knows his stuff.

The Wolves are trying to win with 3 twenty-one year olds, none of whom seem to be plus defenders. That is probably a recipe for losing right there. Then we have a coach who calls the plays from the side-lines and expects the team to run a very disciplined defensive scheme. The team also has very little talent on the bench.

IMO things will turn around when our 3 twenty-one year olds play better down the stretch in games, and we add some veteran, plus defenders to the roster. It would also help if the #5 pick in last years draft could provide more of a consistent boost.

One other thought. I think next year the starting lineup will be Dunn, LaVine, Wiggins, PF-to-be-named-later, and Towns. If true, I'd like to see more of Towns at the 5 and Dunn getting more minutes. I'd also like to see the Wolves get that PF by the deadline if they could. Try to start building winning chemistry now.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Wile, Not sure if you saw this from the other thread, but performing with grace under pressure wasn't nearly as much of a problem last year with the same starting 5, but a year younger, and an even more unstable bench (Payne, rookie Tyus Jones, rookie Bjelica).

Here are some close wins between February 22 and April 9 - basically a 6-week period of time:
Boston - 124-122
@New Orleans - 112-110
@OKC - 99-96
@Wizards - 132-129 in Double OT
@Golden State - 124-117 in OT
@Portland - 106-105

There were a few other close-ish wins too, but I am only counting the ones decided by 4 or less points or that went to OT.

Why didn't this same cast of characters crumble last year? I get that their defense wasn't very good, but man, they won a good chunk of very tight games against some damn good teams.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Wile, Not sure if you saw this from the other thread, but performing with grace under pressure wasn't nearly as much of a problem last year with the same starting 5, but a year younger, and an even more unstable bench (Payne, rookie Tyus Jones, rookie Bjelica).

Here are some close wins between February 22 and April 9 - basically a 6-week period of time:
Boston - 124-122
@New Orleans - 112-110
@OKC - 99-96
@Wizards - 132-129 in Double OT
@Golden State - 124-117 in OT
@Portland - 106-105

There were a few other close-ish wins too, but I am only counting the ones decided by 4 or less points or that went to OT.

Why didn't this same cast of characters crumble last year? I get that their defense wasn't very good, but man, they won a good chunk of very tight games against some damn good teams.

Yeah, that and the regression of all of our players except Zach seems to be the biggest indictment of Thibs. He is the POBO and coach, and needs to figure out what has happened to this team to cause them to no longer close out games like they could last year. I have my theory, but it's probably is a number of factors, and Thibs simply has to figure this one out.

Wile's comment about our Big 3 being poor defenders is an indictment of every coach they have played for here. Wig, Zach and KAT were all considered near elite (copyright PJ Fleck) defenders in college, but in their second and third years, they are all considered subpar. This if a huge indictment of Sam and Thibs, and Flip to some extent. But the biggest disappointment in this area has to be Thibs, because he is being paid $8 million to make these guys better defenders, and so far it hasn't worked.

[Wile E Coyote [enjin:17432808]]

I don't know the answer Q. I'm somewhat stumped by the team's record this year. It feels like a combination of the following:

* Running more complex O & D systems under Thibs, and players haven't internalized them enough to play free and instinctively.

* Players buckling a bit under much increased expectations this year.

* Some bad luck/random variance. I'd think eventually our record on close games would get closer to .500.

If I were to throw darts at Thibs, it would be about things like MPG and the types of shots Towns/Wigs are taking this year. But I don't think those are major causes for our poor record.

[Wile E Coyote [enjin:17432808]]

Wig, Zach and KAT were all considered near elite (copyright PJ Fleck) defenders in college

Wiggins and Towns were considered good defenders during college; Zach was considered a poor defender. In the NBA thus far, I don't think any of them has been consistently good on defense. Andrew has probably been the best.