Minnesota Sports Forum

Embiid is further along defensively, but I'm still taking Towns if I'm choosing between those two and Jokic.

Camden0916 wrote:Embiid is further along defensively, but I'm still taking Towns if I'm choosing between those two and Jokic.

I mean you're entitled to that opinion, but it's really not close at this stage. Embiid is a DPOY candidate and a monster offensively while Towns is just a monster offensively and not great as a defender. Philly is a top 5 defense and we're a bottom 5 defense. That's just a massive gap and we're that low specifically because Towns is a poor defensive anchor. We'd be comfortably in 3rd place with Embiid anchoring our defense. He's a two way stud. Towns is a one way stud.

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Embiid is further along defensively, but I'm still taking Towns if I'm choosing between those two and Jokic.

I mean you're entitled to that opinion, but it's really not close at this stage. Embiid is a DPOY candidate and a monster offensively while Towns is just a monster offensively and not great as a defender. Philly is a top 5 defense and we're a bottom 5 defense. That's just a massive gap and we're that low specifically because Towns is a poor defensive anchor. We'd be comfortably in 3rd place with Embiid anchoring our defense. He's a two way stud. Towns is a one way stud.

Taking Towns makes sense if we are talking long term which would be. I'm not comfortable with Embiid health. Overall player right now? Yeah I'd take Embiid.

khans2k5 wrote:The Sixers are legit people. They might take the 3 seed from Cleveland. Embiid is better than Towns and Simmons is better than Wiggins. It was a road game. There's nothing wrong with losing to that team on a back to back. And stop caring so damn much about guys smiling and laughing on the bench in a loss. They aren't paid to be emotionless robots programmed for your satisfaction. It's okay to not sit in shit and be miserable every time you lose. That's when the wheels really fall off and people have to go. Look at what the Cavs had to do because of a toxic team that was underperforming. Keeping the positive vibes up for this final stretch is more important than being grumpy and pissed and potentially toxic because you lost to a good team who just outplayed you.

Yep and Redick is a good player that missed a couple looks but I thought the Wolves did do a pretty good job on him.

People get upset when guys laugh...these guys spend a ton of time together. They probably have some hilarious inside jokes...seriously.

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:The Sixers are legit people. They might take the 3 seed from Cleveland. Embiid is better than Towns and Simmons is better than Wiggins. It was a road game. There's nothing wrong with losing to that team on a back to back. And stop caring so damn much about guys smiling and laughing on the bench in a loss. They aren't paid to be emotionless robots programmed for your satisfaction. It's okay to not sit in shit and be miserable every time you lose. That's when the wheels really fall off and people have to go. Look at what the Cavs had to do because of a toxic team that was underperforming. Keeping the positive vibes up for this final stretch is more important than being grumpy and pissed and potentially toxic because you lost to a good team who just outplayed you.

Yep and Redick is a good player that missed a couple looks but I thought the Wolves did do a pretty good job on him.

People get upset when guys laugh...these guys spend a ton of time together. They probably have some hilarious inside jokes...seriously.

or maybe they were happy for the bench because they were playing well.

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Embiid is further along defensively, but I'm still taking Towns if I'm choosing between those two and Jokic.

I mean you're entitled to that opinion, but it's really not close at this stage. Embiid is a DPOY candidate and a monster offensively while Towns is just a monster offensively and not great as a defender. Philly is a top 5 defense and we're a bottom 5 defense. That's just a massive gap and we're that low specifically because Towns is a poor defensive anchor. We'd be comfortably in 3rd place with Embiid anchoring our defense. He's a two way stud. Towns is a one way stud.

It's not close... in your opinion. By reputation, your logic is spot-on. Embiid is considered a great defender in the running for DPOY as well as "The Dream"-esque offensively. In theory, that should make him a better player than Towns.

It's the whole "two-way player vs overall impact" debate. It's the same debate people, namely Charles Barkley, tried to argue in Klay Thompson's favor when compared to James Harden as he proclaimed Thompson the "best two-guard in the league" several years ago.

The fact of the matter is that Towns' absolute dominance on the offensive end paired with his OKAY defense makes him the better player between the two. Our eye tests may see things differently -- which is certainly fine by me -- but VORP, BPM, WS, WS/48, PER, and RPM WINS all favor Towns. He's also posting a ridiculous .648 TS% compared to Embiid's respectable .573 TS%. Whether I'm being a homer or just biased towards Towns doesn't even matter because there are enough metrics that lean in KAT's favor. At worst, I'm not sure how you can say it's "really not close at this stage."

Edit: Our defensive woes can be more accurately pinned on the bench being terrible -- specifically Crawford and Dieng -- rather than Towns being a turnstile. That's pointing the finger at one man without legitimate justification.

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Embiid is further along defensively, but I'm still taking Towns if I'm choosing between those two and Jokic.

I mean you're entitled to that opinion, but it's really not close at this stage. Embiid is a DPOY candidate and a monster offensively while Towns is just a monster offensively and not great as a defender. Philly is a top 5 defense and we're a bottom 5 defense. That's just a massive gap and we're that low specifically because Towns is a poor defensive anchor. We'd be comfortably in 3rd place with Embiid anchoring our defense. He's a two way stud. Towns is a one way stud.

Taking Towns makes sense if we are talking long term which would be. I'm not comfortable with Embiid health. Overall player right now? Yeah I'd take Embiid.

I have the same take, Monster. Towns and Embiid are on opposite ends of the durability spectrum. If you're choosing between the two to build around long term, KAT is the better choice. He'll never be the defender Embiid is, but he'll improve. He's already an offensive stud and he'll get even better. Oh, and he's as durable as them come.

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Embiid is further along defensively, but I'm still taking Towns if I'm choosing between those two and Jokic.

I mean you're entitled to that opinion, but it's really not close at this stage. Embiid is a DPOY candidate and a monster offensively while Towns is just a monster offensively and not great as a defender. Philly is a top 5 defense and we're a bottom 5 defense. That's just a massive gap and we're that low specifically because Towns is a poor defensive anchor. We'd be comfortably in 3rd place with Embiid anchoring our defense. He's a two way stud. Towns is a one way stud.

It's not close... in your opinion. By reputation, your logic is spot-on. Embiid is considered a great defender in the running for DPOY as well as "The Dream"-esque offensively. In theory, that should make him a better player than Towns.

It's the whole "two-way player vs overall impact" debate. It's the same debate people, namely Charles Barkley, tried to argue in Klay Thompson's favor when compared to James Harden as he proclaimed Thompson the "best two-guard in the league" several years ago.

The fact of the matter is that Towns' absolute dominance on the offensive end paired with his OKAY defense makes him the better player between the two. Our eye tests may see things differently -- which is certainly fine by me -- but VORP, BPM, WS, WS/48, PER, and RPM WINS all favor Towns. He's also posting a ridiculous .648 TS% compared to Embiid's respectable .573 TS%. Whether I'm being a homer or just biased towards Towns doesn't even matter because there are enough metrics that lean in KAT's favor. At worst, I'm not sure how you can say it's "really not close at this stage."

Edit: Our defensive woes can be more accurately pinned on the bench being terrible -- specifically Crawford and Dieng -- rather than Towns being a turnstile. That's pointing the finger at one man without legitimate justification.

Great analysis, Cam. There's a reason a majority of NBA GMs chose KAT above all other players (not just over Embiid) as the player they'd want to build a franchise around. And that vote was before the start of this season. KAT's gotten better on both ends this season. You're absolutely right about the Wolves defensive woes and the misdirected tendency to point the finger so much at KAT. Jim Peterson has repeatedly made the point that much of what often makes KAT look bad defensively is the failure of the Wolves perimeter defenders to contain penetration. You're point about the bench is righ on and, as we know, KAT gets a lot of minutes with Crawford on the floor.

Camden wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Embiid is further along defensively, but I'm still taking Towns if I'm choosing between those two and Jokic.

I mean you're entitled to that opinion, but it's really not close at this stage. Embiid is a DPOY candidate and a monster offensively while Towns is just a monster offensively and not great as a defender. Philly is a top 5 defense and we're a bottom 5 defense. That's just a massive gap and we're that low specifically because Towns is a poor defensive anchor. We'd be comfortably in 3rd place with Embiid anchoring our defense. He's a two way stud. Towns is a one way stud.

It's not close... in your opinion. By reputation, your logic is spot-on. Embiid is considered a great defender in the running for DPOY as well as "The Dream"-esque offensively. In theory, that should make him a better player than Towns.

It's the whole "two-way player vs overall impact" debate. It's the same debate people, namely Charles Barkley, tried to argue in Klay Thompson's favor when compared to James Harden as he proclaimed Thompson the "best two-guard in the league" several years ago.

The fact of the matter is that Towns' absolute dominance on the offensive end paired with his OKAY defense makes him the better player between the two. Our eye tests may see things differently -- which is certainly fine by me -- but VORP, BPM, WS, WS/48, PER, and RPM WINS all favor Towns. He's also posting a ridiculous .648 TS% compared to Embiid's respectable .573 TS%. Whether I'm being a homer or just biased towards Towns doesn't even matter because there are enough metrics that lean in KAT's favor. At worst, I'm not sure how you can say it's "really not close at this stage."

Edit: Our defensive woes can be more accurately pinned on the bench being terrible -- specifically Crawford and Dieng -- rather than Towns being a turnstile. That's pointing the finger at one man without legitimate justification.

Embiid: 111 Offensive Rating 99.9 Defensive Rating 11.1 Net
Towns: 114.1 Offensive Rating 108.3 Defensive Rating 5.7 Net

That's not close. That's actually a really big gap. Embiid is one of 5 guys playing 30 MPG's and 60 total games this year in double digits in net rating. Towns has a lot of counting and efficiency stats in his favor (some due to his 13 more games played), but the impact stats favor Embiid. And that defensive rating has nothing to do with the bench because It's when he is on the court and that almost a 10 point swing. It gets closer when you look at a stat like Player Impact Estimate on nbadotcom, but Embiid is still 6th with Towns 9th. Harden, Lebron, Giannis, AD and Russ are the only players above Embiid in that stat which matches my eye test. I also don't think it's fair to compare the impact of guards (Harden and Thompson) on a defense with that of actual defensive anchors like the big men. Guards impact a game offensively (handle the ball much more often) more than bigs and bigs impact a game defensively (primary help defenders in the paint) more than guards.

KAT

238 games played so far over 3 seasons.

Embiid

92 games played so far over 4 seasons.

People love to overvalue advanced stats while completely ignoring durability.