Minnesota Sports Forum

Declaring a player one way or another at his age and his development level is dumb, plain and simple. You ripped Lavine quite a bit, but oh well.

Duke13 wrote:Declaring a player one way or another at his age and his development level is dumb, plain and simple. You ripped Lavine quite a bit, but oh well.

I'll say this about Lip...he has a stream of conscienceness especially when it comes to individual games so yeah... :) It's sometimes maddening but also it's sometimes interesting to hear his thoughts in the moment especially since he often is actually at the game.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Good read out on the game Monster. I only saw a couple snippets in the second half.

Finally having our own G-league affiliate, and one that is winning no less, is a really big deal in my opinion. We are well known for the multitudes of lottery pick misses over the years, but I think just as bad has been our track record with late first rounders, 2nd rounders, and undrafted free agents. We have had so little success drafting and then developing these types of players.

Monster, On Patton, yes, I'm glad he is having to earn his minutes. I just wish he was actually having more success. I see a guy that half-asses it on a lot of possessions, with occasional bursts of effort. He also takes the lazy path defensively by reaching instead of walling up. I don't know....he's young and still learning, he has plenty of time I guess, but you can't teach effort.

Yeah, I might be coming around on Amile Jefferson. Big time energy player, but I struggle to see how he helps to solve our defense and shooting issues as a bench 4.

Good stuff Q. On Patton there are a lot of reports about the kid being a hard worker really into the game he is kind of a gym rat type. It's worth remembering that it wasn't too long ago he was like a 6'2" guard playing HS ball. I'm college he wanted with his effort but he also would have stretches he did that stuff and from reports it came every game. Like I said I think it's probably a bit of a combination of him not knowing what to do and also coming back from injury. Will he ultimately work out to be a worthwhile player? Idk. There are some raw tools. Is there reason for some concern? Yeah but he is more of a Lavine type (raw very different talents circumstances) and he isn't gonna get major minutes right away like Lavine did.

I don't see where Amile fits either but if you can get a guy that's fairly young that can play and you probably get him signed cheap that's a win. Many of us here wanted Jordon Bell and man he would have been nice to get. I see Amile COULD be a lesser version (obviously less athletic less shotblocking for sure) of what Bell can bring a team. Like you said having this developmental team is key. If you can find some of these guys it can really help you all the way through the roster. You never know when you can sign one of these guys and maybe it allows you to make another move or maybe even deal a promising player in a deal.

Monster -- I understand your point in comparing Patton to LaVine developmentally. But as some perspective, consider how LaVine would have looked if he had played in the G-League his first season. Heck, look how Amile Jefferson is playing in that League. It's obviously way too early to write off Justin Patton. But the early signs in his G-League play are troubling against the backdrop of his mediocre college stats.

I said in my post this comparison wasn't perfect. Did Lavine miss the whole offseason and part of the season recovering from a foot injury? No.

I know you said it wasn't perfect. And I actually acknowledged the developmental point you were making. But honestly, I think LaVine would have absolutely dominated the G-League. I'll give you the foot injury point. I'm waiting for Patton to eventually at least start putting up numbers on par with Amile Jefferson. It's fair to point out that, coming off his surgery, it's probably not fair to expect Patton to be at that point yet. At some point, he needs to dominate that League if he's going to be the player I'm sure Thibs thought he could be and that we all want him to be.

I think it's also worth mentnioning that these lower levels of Basketball favor guards so yeah Lavine would have probably looked good and we know now how actually talented he was.

It's 9 games in for Patton coming off an injury. There are some interesting stats just for fun looking at the small sample size with per 36 minutes which we know is a flawed way of projecting (especially in a lower league) but I like to look at it and see if a guy has been productive relatively speaking in the minutes he is playing. 3.1 blocks and 1.4 steals jumps out at me (even though I agree with Q he does bad stuff fundamentally on defense) plus 13-15 from the FT line which was a question mark for him in college. Let's give this guy a shot even if other guys look better right now. Heck LST's guy Jarrett Allen has looked plenty interesting and has some decent numbers already at the NBA level.

Duke13 wrote:Declaring a player one way or another at his age and his development level is dumb, plain and simple. You ripped Lavine quite a bit, but oh well.

Duke -- Seriously, I think you get your posters confused. Others here can weigh in as I'm sure they'll remember I was always a LaVine advocate -- sometimes admittedly to a fault. I remember repeatedly criticizing Mitchell for trying to force him into the PG role. Some might say I used Sam Mitchell as a bit of a scapegoat for Zach's own failings. :) Honestly, I'm flattered that you're interested in my prior opinions about former T-Wolf players. I just wish you're memory weren't so impaired.

All of us who post on sports message boards should remember how dumb it is to express opinions about 20-year old rookies the next time we express strong opinions about 18-year old draft prospects. Yes, I have an opinion about Patton based on his college numbers and his recent albeit limited stats in the G-League. My opinion could turn out to be wrong and I hope so. I posted more than once my belief that LaVine would end up becoming better than Wiggins. Now that LaVine is with the Bulls and Wiggins is staying here for max money I hope I turn out to be wrong about that too. :)

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Good read out on the game Monster. I only saw a couple snippets in the second half.

Finally having our own G-league affiliate, and one that is winning no less, is a really big deal in my opinion. We are well known for the multitudes of lottery pick misses over the years, but I think just as bad has been our track record with late first rounders, 2nd rounders, and undrafted free agents. We have had so little success drafting and then developing these types of players.

Monster, On Patton, yes, I'm glad he is having to earn his minutes. I just wish he was actually having more success. I see a guy that half-asses it on a lot of possessions, with occasional bursts of effort. He also takes the lazy path defensively by reaching instead of walling up. I don't know....he's young and still learning, he has plenty of time I guess, but you can't teach effort.

Yeah, I might be coming around on Amile Jefferson. Big time energy player, but I struggle to see how he helps to solve our defense and shooting issues as a bench 4.

Good stuff Q. On Patton there are a lot of reports about the kid being a hard worker really into the game he is kind of a gym rat type. It's worth remembering that it wasn't too long ago he was like a 6'2" guard playing HS ball. I'm college he wanted with his effort but he also would have stretches he did that stuff and from reports it came every game. Like I said I think it's probably a bit of a combination of him not knowing what to do and also coming back from injury. Will he ultimately work out to be a worthwhile player? Idk. There are some raw tools. Is there reason for some concern? Yeah but he is more of a Lavine type (raw very different talents circumstances) and he isn't gonna get major minutes right away like Lavine did.

I don't see where Amile fits either but if you can get a guy that's fairly young that can play and you probably get him signed cheap that's a win. Many of us here wanted Jordon Bell and man he would have been nice to get. I see Amile COULD be a lesser version (obviously less athletic less shotblocking for sure) of what Bell can bring a team. Like you said having this developmental team is key. If you can find some of these guys it can really help you all the way through the roster. You never know when you can sign one of these guys and maybe it allows you to make another move or maybe even deal a promising player in a deal.

Monster -- I understand your point in comparing Patton to LaVine developmentally. But as some perspective, consider how LaVine would have looked if he had played in the G-League his first season. Heck, look how Amile Jefferson is playing in that League. It's obviously way too early to write off Justin Patton. But the early signs in his G-League play are troubling against the backdrop of his mediocre college stats.

I said in my post this comparison wasn't perfect. Did Lavine miss the whole offseason and part of the season recovering from a foot injury? No.

I know you said it wasn't perfect. And I actually acknowledged the developmental point you were making. But honestly, I think LaVine would have absolutely dominated the G-League. I'll give you the foot injury point. I'm waiting for Patton to eventually at least start putting up numbers on par with Amile Jefferson. It's fair to point out that, coming off his surgery, it's probably not fair to expect Patton to be at that point yet. At some point, he needs to dominate that League if he's going to be the player I'm sure Thibs thought he could be and that we all want him to be.

I think it's also worth mentnioning that these lower levels of Basketball favor guards so yeah Lavine would have probably looked good and we know now how actually talented he was.

It's 9 games in for Patton coming off an injury. There are some interesting stats just for fun looking at the small sample size with per 36 minutes which we know is a flawed way of projecting (especially in a lower league) but I like to look at it and see if a guy has been productive relatively speaking in the minutes he is playing. 3.1 blocks and 1.4 steals jumps out at me (even though I agree with Q he does bad stuff fundamentally on defense) plus 13-15 from the FT line which was a question mark for him in college. Let's give this guy a shot even if other guys look better right now. Heck LST's guy Jarrett Allen has looked plenty interesting and has some decent numbers already at the NBA level.

The 3.1 blocks per 36 minutes is impressive. I wasn't aware of that, but that's definitely the kind of production I want to see from him. I'm fine with him needing work on his fundamentals defensively. That's the sort of stuff he can fix given his reputation as a hard worker. What I'm looking for is elite production at the G-League level based on his size and skills. 3.1 blocks per 36 is elite and encouraging.

It's also encouraging to see his FT shooting so far, which as you noted, was an area of concern coming out of college. But again, that's an area he can improve just though hard work. And apparently, he's already improved in that area. Gorgui was a pretty poor FT shooter in college but has become a pretty good one in the NBA.

Patton's development is definitely worth watching. I'm a bit jaded because I thought we had a much better alternative in John Collins based on his college production. So I'll need to work to overcome that bias. :). Seriously, I hope Patton becomes the next Tim Duncan. I'm trying to convince my wife take a road trip with me to Des Moines to watch our Iowa Wolves live. I think that would be a lot of fun. If that happens, I'll be sure to provide a detailed report on Patton.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Good read out on the game Monster. I only saw a couple snippets in the second half.

Finally having our own G-league affiliate, and one that is winning no less, is a really big deal in my opinion. We are well known for the multitudes of lottery pick misses over the years, but I think just as bad has been our track record with late first rounders, 2nd rounders, and undrafted free agents. We have had so little success drafting and then developing these types of players.

Monster, On Patton, yes, I'm glad he is having to earn his minutes. I just wish he was actually having more success. I see a guy that half-asses it on a lot of possessions, with occasional bursts of effort. He also takes the lazy path defensively by reaching instead of walling up. I don't know....he's young and still learning, he has plenty of time I guess, but you can't teach effort.

Yeah, I might be coming around on Amile Jefferson. Big time energy player, but I struggle to see how he helps to solve our defense and shooting issues as a bench 4.

Good stuff Q. On Patton there are a lot of reports about the kid being a hard worker really into the game he is kind of a gym rat type. It's worth remembering that it wasn't too long ago he was like a 6'2" guard playing HS ball. I'm college he wanted with his effort but he also would have stretches he did that stuff and from reports it came every game. Like I said I think it's probably a bit of a combination of him not knowing what to do and also coming back from injury. Will he ultimately work out to be a worthwhile player? Idk. There are some raw tools. Is there reason for some concern? Yeah but he is more of a Lavine type (raw very different talents circumstances) and he isn't gonna get major minutes right away like Lavine did.

I don't see where Amile fits either but if you can get a guy that's fairly young that can play and you probably get him signed cheap that's a win. Many of us here wanted Jordon Bell and man he would have been nice to get. I see Amile COULD be a lesser version (obviously less athletic less shotblocking for sure) of what Bell can bring a team. Like you said having this developmental team is key. If you can find some of these guys it can really help you all the way through the roster. You never know when you can sign one of these guys and maybe it allows you to make another move or maybe even deal a promising player in a deal.

Monster -- I understand your point in comparing Patton to LaVine developmentally. But as some perspective, consider how LaVine would have looked if he had played in the G-League his first season. Heck, look how Amile Jefferson is playing in that League. It's obviously way too early to write off Justin Patton. But the early signs in his G-League play are troubling against the backdrop of his mediocre college stats.

I said in my post this comparison wasn't perfect. Did Lavine miss the whole offseason and part of the season recovering from a foot injury? No.

I know you said it wasn't perfect. And I actually acknowledged the developmental point you were making. But honestly, I think LaVine would have absolutely dominated the G-League. I'll give you the foot injury point. I'm waiting for Patton to eventually at least start putting up numbers on par with Amile Jefferson. It's fair to point out that, coming off his surgery, it's probably not fair to expect Patton to be at that point yet. At some point, he needs to dominate that League if he's going to be the player I'm sure Thibs thought he could be and that we all want him to be.

I think it's also worth mentnioning that these lower levels of Basketball favor guards so yeah Lavine would have probably looked good and we know now how actually talented he was.

It's 9 games in for Patton coming off an injury. There are some interesting stats just for fun looking at the small sample size with per 36 minutes which we know is a flawed way of projecting (especially in a lower league) but I like to look at it and see if a guy has been productive relatively speaking in the minutes he is playing. 3.1 blocks and 1.4 steals jumps out at me (even though I agree with Q he does bad stuff fundamentally on defense) plus 13-15 from the FT line which was a question mark for him in college. Let's give this guy a shot even if other guys look better right now. Heck LST's guy Jarrett Allen has looked plenty interesting and has some decent numbers already at the NBA level.

The 3.1 blocks per 36 minutes is impressive. I wasn't aware of that, but that's definitely the kind of production I want to see from him. I'm fine with him needing work on his fundamentals defensively. That's the sort of stuff he can fix given his reputation as a hard worker. What I'm looking for is elite production at the G-League level based on his size and skills. 3.1 blocks per 36 is elite and encouraging.

It's also encouraging to see his FT shooting so far, which as you noted, was an area of concern coming out of college. But again, that's an area he can improve just though hard work. And apparently, he's already improved in that area. Gorgui was a pretty poor FT shooter in college but has become a pretty good one in the NBA.

Patton's development is definitely worth watching. I'm a bit jaded because I thought we had a much better alternative in John Collins based on his college production. So I'll need to work to overcome that bias. :). Seriously, I hope Patton becomes the next Tim Duncan. I'm trying to convince my wife take a road trip with me to Des Moines to watch our Iowa Wolves live. I think that would be a lot of fun. If that happens, I'll be sure to provide a detailed report on Patton.

Lip you got me on the John Collins bandwagon I would have been happy to have picked him. Collins and Patton was in a group of bigs in particular I would have been happy with or intruiged by. 3-5 years from now we may shake our fist at Thibs and Layden for passing on a really good player or maybe he got a nice player. Jason Thompson looked like he was gonna be at least a solid starter for years and ended up out of the league before he was 30. We only have what we can go on at the time so we make our projections based on that. We should also know that sometimes years later tell us the story we just have to wait and see how it plays out. Sitting around just watching isn't any fun we are all here to share our thoughts and process as fans which most of the time adds to the entire experience. It's pretty easy as a Wolves fan to think we screwed up the draft so that's another thing for most of us to get over. Lol of course it would be nice if the Wolves gave us reasons to think they actually pick and develop the right talent. Givoney of Draft Express really believes that for many players in the draft where they land and what situation is so much bigger than people realize. He is obviously more invested in the players in his job than teams but so do think he has a valid point. Obviously the great players are gonna be great regardless and sometimes inspite of the franchise they go to but yeah. Can we become one of those franchises that really develops players? Idk we have to wait and see. The turnaround with the Iowa Wolves lately is encouraging.

I need to get to an Iowa Wolves game as well. I have family in the area I would like to go see soon as we didn't get a chance to get together for any of the holidays. Some of them have already gone to a game so I know a few of them would be up for another.

Watching last night's Wolves win. They started the game with cold shooting with great looks and down 11-0 and then went on a run to finish up the 1st quarter up 24-28. Patton scored 11 points. 3 at the FT line (3-4) Some on mid-range and long 2's with a smooth looking jumper. he had a couple plays at the rim where he caught less than idea passes and either finished or made a play and got fouled. His defense was a mixed bag but he did have a nice play where he doubled and had a good poke away. He had a couple poor plays that resulted in fouls.

The green jerseys they are wearing are kinda cool.

The 2nd quarter was good then the 3rd quarter happened and this game went the wrong direction. Both teams were pretty short handed. Not much else to say.

Trimble was pretty good offensively. Waspun had another solid game. Bryson had a Superman lob dunk on a pass from Brown and Bryson was the guy that poked away the ball to get the transition opportunity going.

monsterpile wrote:Watching last night's Wolves win. They started the game with cold shooting with great looks and down 11-0 and then went on a run to finish up the 1st quarter up 24-28. Patton scored 11 points. 3 at the FT line (3-4) Some on mid-range and long 2's with a smooth looking jumper. he had a couple plays at the rim where he caught less than idea passes and either finished or made a play and got fouled. His defense was a mixed bag but he did have a nice play where he doubled and had a good poke away. He had a couple poor plays that resulted in fouls.

The green jerseys they are wearing are kinda cool.

The 2nd quarter was good then the 3rd quarter happened and this game went the wrong direction. Both teams were pretty short handed. Not much else to say.

Trimble was pretty good offensively. Waspun had another solid game. Bryson had a Superman lob dunk on a pass from Brown and Bryson was the guy that poked away the ball to get the transition opportunity going.

Monster -- Any thoughts on possibly signing Trimble to a 2-way and bringing him up while Teague is on the shelf? I like the clips of him I've seen.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Watching last night's Wolves win. They started the game with cold shooting with great looks and down 11-0 and then went on a run to finish up the 1st quarter up 24-28. Patton scored 11 points. 3 at the FT line (3-4) Some on mid-range and long 2's with a smooth looking jumper. he had a couple plays at the rim where he caught less than idea passes and either finished or made a play and got fouled. His defense was a mixed bag but he did have a nice play where he doubled and had a good poke away. He had a couple poor plays that resulted in fouls.

The green jerseys they are wearing are kinda cool.

The 2nd quarter was good then the 3rd quarter happened and this game went the wrong direction. Both teams were pretty short handed. Not much else to say.

Trimble was pretty good offensively. Waspun had another solid game. Bryson had a Superman lob dunk on a pass from Brown and Bryson was the guy that poked away the ball to get the transition opportunity going.

Monster -- Any thoughts on possibly signing Trimble to a 2-way and bringing him up while Teague is on the shelf? I like the clips of him I've seen.

These last 2 games are the best I have seen him offensively not just scoring but making plays for other guys and picking his spots. He is really more of a scorer though and his defense I don't think stands out although I think the last couple games I have seen its been better. he is averaging 5.9 assists and 3.9 turnovers. Its the G-league so there will be TO's but that's not particularity good. As for signing him to a 2-way deal...is he really gonna be better than Brooks? I kinda doubt it. Teague isn't gonna be out that long. If we are gonna sign a guy to a 2-way deal deal I'd rather sign Jefferson. If we need a PG for a few games sign someone maybe even Trimble to a 10 day contract or 2. I'll say this about Trimble they picked a guy that can really play at that level. If he can start hitting 3's at a higher percentage...that would make him much more interesting. I like him I'm just not sure if thats the guy I would go all in on. I certainly wouldn't be against it either. He might be able to be a 3rd PG for this team at some point (like next season) especially the way that Tyus has played you don't HAVE to have vet guy like Brooks to save you. Tyus probably has proven him self enough to maybe use that spot on a developmental player especially if Crawford sticks around another year.

monsterpile wrote:Watching last night's Wolves win. They started the game with cold shooting with great looks and down 11-0 and then went on a run to finish up the 1st quarter up 24-28. Patton scored 11 points. 3 at the FT line (3-4) Some on mid-range and long 2's with a smooth looking jumper. he had a couple plays at the rim where he caught less than idea passes and either finished or made a play and got fouled. His defense was a mixed bag but he did have a nice play where he doubled and had a good poke away. He had a couple poor plays that resulted in fouls.

The green jerseys they are wearing are kinda cool.

The 2nd quarter was good then the 3rd quarter happened and this game went the wrong direction. Both teams were pretty short handed. Not much else to say.

Trimble was pretty good offensively. Waspun had another solid game. Bryson had a Superman lob dunk on a pass from Brown and Bryson was the guy that poked away the ball to get the transition opportunity going.

I think you mis-spoke above Monster in calling it a Wolves win. The Iowa Wolves got beaten handily. Their defense was just awful in this game. I watched a small tidbit of it, but not enough to make any in depth observations. I still think Patton has a major motor problem and plays a lazy style of basketball. It's not a good sign, but alas, we will say he's young, needs time to develop, etc., etc.