Camden0916 wrote:I can support wanting to see more of Tyus Jones, however I'd personally want to see less of Jamal Crawford as a result. I'm fine with how much the starters are being played.
I can't agree with you at all in terms of playing Aldrich at all. I said it before he was signed, but he's not a good NBA player. He's not worthy of being in the rotation as far as I can tell. Outside of the one season for the Clippers in which the advanced metrics actually loved him, he's been a floater around the league -- what, six teams in eight seasons, or something like that -- for a plethora of reasons -- his inability to produce being key.
If this was a couple years ago Aldrich I still think could have value. Now guys that are 6'5" are being considered possible small ball 4's in draft breakdowns. The game has REALLY changed. Now he is a pure center in a league where a lot of teams don't play one of those guys off the bench. Boban is a guy that a number of years ago would be in high demand at worst as a backup. He barely plays for the Pistons.
The minutes wouldn't be as big of an issue of Thibs knew how to use his timeouts well. Everyone knows when the TV timeouts are. Teams have been able to get extra rest for guys around the TV timeouts and still have them play big minutes and be fine. Using your timeouts right before or right after the TV timeout to get that extra rest and then getting a guy back in is huge to get them minutes of rest with little game time coming off the clock. In the NBA I don't think calling timeouts to stop a run is nearly as necessary as college so for the most part 2-3 timeouts should go off around the same time every game just to ensure that extra rest. A little detail like that can make a huge difference between 40 minutes turning your feet into stone and feeling just a little better to be able to close out the game.
This might be out of date because it's from 2015 but it was the best I could find: "There are automatic timeouts at the 6-minute and 3-minute mark of the first and third quarters, and at the 9-minute, 6-minute and 3-minute mark of the second and fourth quarters." If you get your key starters out after the 3 minute TV timeout in the 3rd and take a timeout around the 10th or 8th minute in the 4th (depending on how good the bench is) that's only 5-7 minutes of game time that probably comes out to closer to 20 minutes of rest due to the 2 TV timeouts, quarter break and using one of your own timeouts.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Here is something I was thinking about with the Wolves highest minutes in the league. I know they are probably one of the slower teams as far as offensively. No real urgency or aggressiveness much of the time it seems. So here is the thing. They are still scoring points but what does that do to the other team and the Wolves defensively?
It gives the opponent time to rest on defense and then they can push the ball on offense and the circle starts over again.
Wolves slow it down, give opposition a rest, other team is fresh on offense and finds a good shot.
Wolves are tired, dribble the ball up slowly and take a last second chuck after we hear green for the 30th time that game.
I made the point implied in your question in another thread a little while ago. Teams really don't have to work very hard to defend the Wolves. And I think that helps opposing offenses, which in turn hurts the Wolves defense.
Right. The offense style directly effects the defense as well.
Make teams work on defense and that will slow down their own offense.
If anyone remembers Reggie Miller (maybe most of us), man, that dude was a tough cover. He was constantly slashing and running corner to corner making his man work and getting open.
You know who made defenses work even without the basketball? Zach LaVine.
Man, I really believe we're missing the elements that he brought to the team. We just don't have a flamethrower from deep anymore, and that's not a jab at Nemanja Bjelica. I thought Minnesota had learned their lesson over the 20 seasons before Kevin Martin got here, but apparently we're still blind to the fact that you kind of have to have at least one volume 3P shooter, especially in today's NBA.
Imagine if Jimmy Butler and Jeff Teague were driving and kicking -- or Karl-Anthony Towns was passing out of double-teams -- to an open 38% 3P shooter instead of the 33% 3P shooter they have now, and yes I'm referring to Andrew Wiggins.
I don't mean to turn this comment into another Wiggins discussion, but play styles and fit are just as important as overall talent level. I'm struggling to see Wiggins being a successful, long-term piece for Minnesota unless he significantly improves his perimeter jumper, and I don't mean the 18-footer.
Camden wrote:You know who made defenses work even without the basketball? Zach LaVine.
Man, I really believe we're missing the elements that he brought to the team. We just don't have a flamethrower from deep anymore, and that's not a jab at Nemanja Bjelica. I thought Minnesota had learned their lesson over the 20 seasons before Kevin Martin got here, but apparently we're still blind to the fact that you kind of have to have at least one volume 3P shooter, especially in today's NBA.
Imagine if Jimmy Butler and Jeff Teague were driving and kicking -- or Karl-Anthony Towns was passing out of double-teams -- to an open 38% 3P shooter instead of the 33% 3P shooter they have now, and yes I'm referring to Andrew Wiggins.
I don't mean to turn this comment into another Wiggins discussion, but play styles and fit are just as important as overall talent level. I'm struggling to see Wiggins being a successful, long-term piece for Minnesota unless he significantly improves his perimeter jumper, and I don't mean the 18-footer.
It's kind of telling when most Wolves fans hope for Wiggins to become a really good 3-and-D guy.
Wiggins shows flashes once in a while. A great drive and dunk here or there or a great defensive block. Spurts of very good 3P shooting. But I always feel like he's only at 50% effort most of the time. He's not hungry to win and a bit soft. imo from my perspective.
Camden wrote:You know who made defenses work even without the basketball? Zach LaVine.
Man, I really believe we're missing the elements that he brought to the team. We just don't have a flamethrower from deep anymore, and that's not a jab at Nemanja Bjelica. I thought Minnesota had learned their lesson over the 20 seasons before Kevin Martin got here, but apparently we're still blind to the fact that you kind of have to have at least one volume 3P shooter, especially in today's NBA.
Imagine if Jimmy Butler and Jeff Teague were driving and kicking -- or Karl-Anthony Towns was passing out of double-teams -- to an open 38% 3P shooter instead of the 33% 3P shooter they have now, and yes I'm referring to Andrew Wiggins.
I don't mean to turn this comment into another Wiggins discussion, but play styles and fit are just as important as overall talent level. I'm struggling to see Wiggins being a successful, long-term piece for Minnesota unless he significantly improves his perimeter jumper, and I don't mean the 18-footer.
I was thinking of Zach as well as I was writing about Reggie. I was one of the few who would have rather kept Zach and traded Wiggins. Zach seems more cold blooded to me even if his skills are not as high as Wiggins in many areas, of course his shot was always better.
longstrangetrip wrote:
I think we tend to get too focused on the minutes played, while the real issue is the minutes of rest. The fact that Player A plays 33 minutes and Player B plays 30 might not have a big impact on the game in and of itself. But the fact that Player A was only allowed to rest for 5 minutes at the end of the third quarter and Player B was given 8 minutes is likely to impact their play. I know this both from personal experience and from watching the Wolves' poor play at the end of games when Thibs doesn't give enough rest. I remember times in high school and college when the coach put me back in before I had had time to sufficiently recover, and I know my performance was not as strong as it could have been. And we've all witnessed the terrible 4th quarter collapses for the Wolves when Thibs rests his starters much less than the opposing coach (as I type this, I see that Thibs is at it again...he has played his bench 20 minutes so far tonight and Rivers has played his 35).
What would I like to see Thibs do? Easy...use the roster that he had a hand in assembling. He went out and got Aldridge who played very well for Doc Rivers, but he won't play him and rather chooses to burn out KAT. Tyus Jones was very good while Teague was out, but now he can't get a sufficient amount of minutes. I think that hurts both PGs...Tyus can't get into a groove with so few minutes, and Teague looks slow on offense and defense when he is exhausted at the end of games.
I don't know if Thibs is capable of changing, but I think his willingness to adapt to the way other coaches are using their rotations will be a key factor in our success this year.
One thing that makes Wolves minutes distribution between starters and bench to look worse than it really is compared to other teams is that Wolves starters have missed just couple of games and they have not changed their starting lineup during the season. Only other teams that have started same lineup as often than Wolves are Detroit and Oklahoma. Of course it looks like some teams would play their starters much less because they have been forced to shuffle starting lineup several times. Often even after injured players are back in lineup, they might not be able to play that big minutes right away.
I still believe that the best teams play their starters less mainly because they want to keep them healthier and fresher for playoffs. I won't believe that playing too much minutes would have much effect for regular season results.
Butler is currently playing about same amount of minutes than he played for Hoiberg. Kat is playing less than he played in second half of his rookie season during the phase that LST so often last season referred his expected level of play. Wiggins is playing less than last year and clearly less than he was playing in second half of his rookie season. Taj and Teague are playing more minutes than before but still they play least minutes among Wolves starters. So I don't see their minutes as a big issue either.
I generally side with LST in this debate, but in addition to Mikkeman's observations, the other thing to consider is that the 82-game regular season is spread out across a longer time period. For example, the Wolves' next game is on Sunday.
And here is some irony: One of the reasons our starters have played so many more minutes collectively than most of the rest of the league is because they have stayed pretty damn healthy!
That being said, it's more of the in-game performance I'm concerned about, especially in 4th quarters, than whether Thibs is jeopardizing people's long-term health. That extra minute or two of rest during a game could make a big difference in making that hard basket cut, boxing out, second effort defensively, etc. We've seen how this team can really stagnate late in games. Tired legs has to be part of the equation there.
Q12543 wrote:I generally side with LST in this debate, but in addition to Mikkeman's observations, the other thing to consider is that the 82-game regular season is spread out across a longer time period. For example, the Wolves' next game is on Sunday.
And here is some irony: One of the reasons our starters have played so many more minutes collectively than most of the rest of the league is because they have stayed pretty damn healthy!
That being said, it's more of the in-game performance I'm concerned about, especially in 4th quarters, than whether Thibs is jeopardizing people's long-term health. That extra minute or two of rest during a game could make a big difference in making that hard basket cut, boxing out, second effort defensively, etc. We've seen how this team can really stagnate late in games. Tired legs has to be part of the equation there.
That of course is my main point, Q, and you present it quite well. Tired legs lead to all those things you mention, and I would add moving without the ball to the list. You posted yesterday how difficult it is to defend a guy who is always moving, and our tired legs in the 4th quarter leads to guys standing around...and that in turn allows our opponents to rest. It's a bad scenario, and the primary reason I think for our poor results in 4th quarters.
