Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:The Mitchell vitriol on this board continues to astound me, and calling these two moves "blunders" is another example. Misty and monster both make good points about the timeout with 8 seconds left, and demonstrate why this was a 50/50 call...some will like it and some won't. But the timeout was a great move. Sam called two timeouts toward the end of the game...one when we were down 5 with about 7 minutes left and then the one up 5 in OT...and both were very timely. You could tell that the Wolves were really gassed at both times, and Sam saw it and called the timeout to let his players catch their breath. The first one resulted in 5 consecutive points that got us back in the game, and although Ricky missed a wide open look after the second one, it both refreshed the team and allowed Sam to reset his defense with Barnes coming in for Green. And you can't argue that it wasn't successful, because after getting their wind back the Wolves built their lead in the final minute.

I listened to KAT on the radio yesterday making his plea for Mitchell to come back. He talked about how everyone has developed during the year, and he credited the coaching staff for that. I recognize that the board sentiment is for the Wolves to bring in their 4th new coach in 6 years, but the last thing this young team needs is more instability. Everyone loves Rick Carlisle, but despite having a team with almost no veterans on it, the Wolves record since the all-star break is almost identical to the Mavs. Doesn't Sam deserve some credit for the improvement in this team the past couple months? This board has complained about every coach we have had except Flip, and my sources confirm he is not coming back. I'm hoping Glen recognizes the enormous steps this coaching staff has led this young team to this season and brings them back...this franchise needs some stability.

Yay a post from LST!!! It's good to hear your perspective especially one that's pro Sam.

Could you please let me know where you heard that radio spot with KAT talking about Sam?

Monster, Barreiro had KAT on his show Wednesday afternoon.

KAT should be an international diplomat or PR guy because he has something good to say about everyone. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't know if we always know what he REALLY thinks.

I've said this before, but I think a really talented group of players will get to a certain point regardless of coaching. My issue with Mitchell is can he adapt as the team grows and matures?

Q12543 wrote:KAT should be an international diplomat or PR guy because he has something good to say about everyone. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't know if we always know what he REALLY thinks.

I've said this before, but I think a really talented group of players will get to a certain point regardless of coaching. My issue with Mitchell is can he adapt as the team grows and matures?

To your first point he was on the vertical podcast and I had to shut it off because he was giving the interviewer nothing. What if fine but was not interesting to listen to

Carlos Danger wrote:Good post LST. But the counter would be that if Sam is such an innovative mind - why do we only have 26 wins? I guess you could counter with "we're young" "he took over a tough situation when Flip died", "he doesn't have his own assistants" etc. And all those things should be considered. But I think many others would go back to the fact that if at the start of the year we knew we'd be healthy this year (aside from KG and Pek), most would have expected a few more wins. The current starting five has been healthy the whole season, but Sam didn't put them together until a couple months ago. That was a mistake and many wanted this current group together a long time ago.

I don't think Sam is a complete buffoon. I just believe a more accomplished coach would be a better fit for these young guys. But at the end of the day - it doesn't matter. It's looking more and more like Milt and Sam are coming back for year two.

I think the answer is very easy, Anthony...too young. NBA teams don't win with a roster made up mostly of guys in their young 20s and old 30s, even if they have a couple future HOFers on that roster. The best comparative roster for this year's Wolves is the 2008-9 OkC Thunder. Despite having two certain future HOFers on their roster (Durant and Westbrook), they won a whopping 23 games. Was Scotty Brooks a bad coach? I don't think so, and he was brought back the following year...and we all know how successful they became as their stars matured. Thunder ownership recognized that despite the 59 losses, the last thing their promising roster needed was another coaching change. Similarly, Flip left Sam with a roster with a lot of potential, but not one built to win now. Sam recognized that he had to coach these kids more like an AAU team than an NBA team (we saw that at the first televised practice), and the development of guys like KAT, Zach and Gorgui was remarkable. The Wolves played well early in the season, but it was mostly because of the defensive contributions of KG and Tay. Then after KG went down, the team turned to its youth, and struggled terribly for about 40 games. But as the young guys started to take to heart what the coaching staff was feeding them, they began to win. They are 7-7 over their past 14 games, and unlike previous Wolves' teams, are finishing the season very strong. Why make a coaching change now when they are on the cusp of an OkC-like improvement?

I agree with some of the negative comments about Mitchell here. His disdain for the press and self-serving defensive comments to the media bug me sometimes too, just as I'm sure they bug Glen. But I can't come up with a sure-fire replacement option that I think is worth upsetting the good end-of-year vibe this club has going right now. The two names I hear mentioned most are a guy who hasn't coached since the year Sam won COY honors (JVG) and a coach who was just fired because he wasn't getting the job done (Thibs). If there was a sure-thing coach out there, I would be willing to continue the instability by making him our 4th coach in 5 years. But a recently fired guy or a guy who hasn't coached in 10 years don't sound like sure things to me. I'm waiting to hear a better option before I jump on the "Fire Sam" bandwagon, and until I hear of one, I'm going to continue to enjoy the resurgence this club is showing.

longstrangetrip wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:Good post LST. But the counter would be that if Sam is such an innovative mind - why do we only have 26 wins? I guess you could counter with "we're young" "he took over a tough situation when Flip died", "he doesn't have his own assistants" etc. And all those things should be considered. But I think many others would go back to the fact that if at the start of the year we knew we'd be healthy this year (aside from KG and Pek), most would have expected a few more wins. The current starting five has been healthy the whole season, but Sam didn't put them together until a couple months ago. That was a mistake and many wanted this current group together a long time ago.

I don't think Sam is a complete buffoon. I just believe a more accomplished coach would be a better fit for these young guys. But at the end of the day - it doesn't matter. It's looking more and more like Milt and Sam are coming back for year two.

I think the answer is very easy, Anthony...too young. NBA teams don't win with a roster made up mostly of guys in their young 20s and old 30s, even if they have a couple future HOFers on that roster. The best comparative roster for this year's Wolves is the 2008-9 OkC Thunder. Despite having two certain future HOFers on their roster (Durant and Westbrook), they won a whopping 23 games. Was Scotty Brooks a bad coach? I don't think so, and he was brought back the following year...and we all know how successful they became as their stars matured. Thunder ownership recognized that despite the 59 losses, the last thing their promising roster needed was another coaching change. Similarly, Flip left Sam with a roster with a lot of potential, but not one built to win now. Sam recognized that he had to coach these kids more like an AAU team than an NBA team (we saw that at the first televised practice), and the development of guys like KAT, Zach and Gorgui was remarkable. The Wolves played well early in the season, but it was mostly because of the defensive contributions of KG and Tay. Then after KG went down, the team turned to its youth, and struggled terribly for about 40 games. But as the young guys started to take to heart what the coaching staff was feeding them, they began to win. They are 7-7 over their past 14 games, and unlike previous Wolves' teams, are finishing the season very strong. Why make a coaching change now when they are on the cusp of an OkC-like improvement?

I agree with some of the negative comments about Mitchell here. His disdain for the press and self-serving defensive comments to the media bug me sometimes too, just as I'm sure they bug Glen. But I can't come up with a sure-fire replacement option that I think is worth upsetting the good end-of-year vibe this club has going right now. The two names I hear mentioned most are a guy who hasn't coached since the year Sam won COY honors (JVG) and a coach who was just fired because he wasn't getting the job done (Thibs). If there was a sure-thing coach out there, I would be willing to continue the instability by making him our 4th coach in 5 years. But a recently fired guy or a guy who hasn't coached in 10 years don't sound like sure things to me. I'm waiting to hear a better option before I jump on the "Fire Sam" bandwagon, and until I hear of one, I'm going to continue to enjoy the resurgence this club is showing.

To be fair the bulls have gotten 11 games worse this year that Thibs is gone. I like sam in the development part. But the thing is are the players taking the next step because of sam or because it is the natural progression of the players (I honestly don't know the answer).

In my opinion I would like to hire a guy that could lead us to a Championship and I will never believe Sam is that guy.

I think sam is a great assistant but not a head coach, from the hockey subs (have gotten better), no accountability, he is known for his defense and that has regressed as the year has went on.

The thing I will give sam a lot of credit and I was not happy with at the beginning of the year but I was wrong, KAT minute use has been very good this year

1. Mitchell gets ripped a lot. Much of it is deserved... but he rarely gets credit, even when he deserves it. For example, a thread was created ripping him after the team beat one of the best teams in NBA history.

2. There seem to be a lot of pretty darn good NBA coaches right now. There are other guys not coaching that have had success in the past. And others who might be among the next wave of good head coaches.

3. I'm not a fan of Mitchell, even though I think he was fine for the team this season... teaching them about being professionals in an old-school sort of way. I think he has a limited ceiling on the sidelines and with in-game situations.

4. As noted her by me many times previously... and others even in this thread... the assistant coaches are arguably a bigger problem than Mitchell. You can have a marginal head coach and generalist type in charge... IF he has a solid core group of experienced coaches on the sidelines with him. Especially if those guys are the specialist kind like Joerger or Thibodeau or Ron Adams. The Wolves simply don't have that group. Saunders' death has a lot to do with that. Everybody got a bump in responsibilities...

5. It doesn't matter. Glen Taylor owns the team. I've been following the Wolves pretty religiously since before he arrived on the scene. There's nothing in his resume to suggest that Mitchell isn't returning next season. Get ready for it everybody. I know I'll be preparing mentally for another change in 2 or 3 seasons when this group stagnates a step or two below the elite and Mitchell becomes the scapegoat.

Good point about the Bulls getting worse under Hoiberg, kek. I don't know how to feel about that. My initial reaction is that it makes Thibs look better, because the team performed better under him than under Hoiberg. But my next thought is that coaching changes are a crap shoot, and often don't turn out well. Thibs personality made him unpopular with many within the organization (unlike Sam, who is disliked by the media but well liked within the organization) and Hoiberg was the shiny new object destined to lead the Bulls to the promised land. Many here (including me) were on the Hoiberg bandwagon, but it doesn't appear that we were right. My final thought is that I don't want either of them coaching here.

Yes, the Wolves defense has gotten much worse as the year progressed, but that has nothing to do with Sam...just like their defensive excellence the first 10 games of the year had little to do with Sam. It's all about KG (and a little about Tay too). KG is one of the greatest defenders of all time, and with him and Tay in the starting lineup we were a very good defensive team. After he got hurt, Sam went in a different direction, and we became a very good offensive club. I still think Sam is a very good defensive coach...the huge improvement on that side of the court this year for Zach and Gorgui tells me that, along with the brilliant defensive schemes against Golden State the past 2 games that allowed us to play dead even with the best team in basketball. He recognized early that his roster was very fundamentally poor defensively, and his remedial work with some of his younger guys was evident as the year went on. I look for guys like Zach, G, Wig and KAT to continue to make great strides defensively next year, and that will have a lot to do with us making the playoffs next year if Glen decides to stay the course.

I agree with you that Sam handled KAT's minutes well this year. He infuriated many fans by limiting KAT's minutes early in the year, but I think he was keeping a longer view. And as a result KAT never got hurt all year and also never seemed to hit the rookie wall. Managing players' minutes is not a strength area for Thibs, and overplaying his stars may have contributed to the poor injury history for the Bulls. The Wolves OTOH have been very healthy under Sam (and Kander), and that has been a big contributing factor to their nearly doubling their win total. Flip didn't leave Sam with much of a bench, and leads often disappeared when he rested his starters (whether he did it hockey fashion or not). But unlike Thibs, Sam's longer view keeps his players rested for end of games and healthy. Sam and Thibs both have hard-ass reputations, but only one of them played the game at a high level and understands the rigors of an NBA season...I prefer Sam's approach.

I'm getting prepared for another year of Mitchell. I wouldn't bring him back and I still have hope Glen won't, but I think it's the most likely outcome. If he does come back, it will be very interesting to see if he gets a single or multi-year deal.

If I was Glen, I would bring in KAT, Wig, and Lavine and attempt to get their honest input on how they feel about Sam. I know that flies in the face of any old-school approach, but in this day and age of free agency I think it's important to at least get input from the guys you are going to build the future with. Not let them make the decision mind you, but make sure there aren't any major conflicts that could cause a larger problem down the road. Glen should at least factor this in to any decision he ultimately makes.

longstrangetrip wrote:Good point about the Bulls getting worse under Hoiberg, kek. I don't know how to feel about that. My initial reaction is that it makes Thibs look better, because the team performed better under him than under Hoiberg. But my next thought is that coaching changes are a crap shoot, and often don't turn out well. Thibs personality made him unpopular with many within the organization (unlike Sam, who is disliked by the media but well liked within the organization) and Hoiberg was the shiny new object destined to lead the Bulls to the promised land. Many here (including me) were on the Hoiberg bandwagon, but it doesn't appear that we were right. My final thought is that I don't want either of them coaching here.

Yes, the Wolves defense has gotten much worse as the year progressed, but that has nothing to do with Sam...just like their defensive excellence the first 10 games of the year had little to do with Sam. It's all about KG (and a little about Tay too). KG is one of the greatest defenders of all time, and with him and Tay in the starting lineup we were a very good defensive team. After he got hurt, Sam went in a different direction, and we became a very good offensive club. I still think Sam is a very good defensive coach...the huge improvement on that side of the court this year for Zach and Gorgui tells me that, along with the brilliant defensive schemes against Golden State the past 2 games that allowed us to play dead even with the best team in basketball. He recognized early that his roster was very fundamentally poor defensively, and his remedial work with some of his younger guys was evident as the year went on. I look for guys like Zach, G, Wig and KAT to continue to make great strides defensively next year, and that will have a lot to do with us making the playoffs next year if Glen decides to stay the course.

I agree with you that Sam handled KAT's minutes well this year. He infuriated many fans by limiting KAT's minutes early in the year, but I think he was keeping a longer view. And as a result KAT never got hurt all year and also never seemed to hit the rookie wall. Managing players' minutes is not a strength area for Thibs, and overplaying his stars may have contributed to the poor injury history for the Bulls. The Wolves OTOH have been very healthy under Sam (and Kander), and that has been a big contributing factor to their nearly doubling their win total. Flip didn't leave Sam with much of a bench, and leads often disappeared when he rested his starters (whether he did it hockey fashion or not). But unlike Thibs, Sam's longer view keeps his players rested for end of games and healthy. Sam and Thibs both have hard-ass reputations, but only one of them played the game at a high level and understands the rigors of an NBA season...I prefer Sam's approach.

My quibbles are for the stuff in bold.

You seem to be basically saying "I don't care what the on-court stuff suggests, I'm sticking with my preconceived opinion."

You're absolving him of blame... but still giving him props even though the team is in the bottom 3 of the league defensively. It's sort of like how others rip Mitchell for everything, but ignore his good qualities or when good things happen. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Logically. Where in that cushy middle though? Personally, I lean toward one side which would put him in the bottom half of the league for coaches.


[Note: As for "playing the game" angle for coaches, I think we have more than ample evidence that it's not a prerequisite.]

Abe, let me make my point about Sam's influence on the defense a different way. The Wolves became one of the best offensive teams in the league at the end of the season after ranking near the bottom at the start of the season. Are we then to conclude that Sam is the greatest offensive coach of all time, and that it was his offensive influence that turned this team around? Of course not. The Wolves became a much better offensive team because KG's and Tay's minutes were replaced by players who can score but not defend. Similarly, that's the reason the team got so much worse defensively as the season progressed. It would be disingenuous to pin the defensive woes of this club on Sam without giving him credit for the offensive turnaround...especially when both have much more to do with KG than Sam.