Q12543 wrote:So trying to make the playoffs is a dumb move!? Again, Sam Hinkie has a spot reserved for you in his front office.
At the cost of a first round pick, yes it is a dumb move this early in the rebuild. Hinkie hasn't even sniffed the playoffs so he has no idea what this situation is like. If we keep this pick it turns into a second rounder moving forward so we can trade it right away (Payne pick still isn't until 2017 because of this pick) for something that can help us make the playoffs next year and moving forward.
Using your logic, you're comfortable missing the playoffs til 2021 or every time the Wolves trade a protected first.
The longer they miss the playoffs, the less likely it feels like they'll ever make it back.
Ya, the whole part where I mentioned getting help to make the playoffs next year and beyond really says I am comfortable waiting until 2021. SMH. For reference, Westbrook and Durant made their first playoff appearance in their 2nd and 3rd years. We're a year ahead of schedule.
Camden0916 wrote:(Pek, Bazz, pick for Brook Lopez for example)
I think I just threw up in my mouth...
19.5/8.2/2.2 blocks on the same contract length as Pek makes you throw up? Lopez has only played less than 72 games twice in his 8 year career. He puts an all-star in his prime (27) in our starting lineup for a guy who can't stay on the court, a sixth man scorer and a lottery pick in a weak draft. That's a steal. The starting lineup is missing scoring and he's a huge upgrade over KG.
It's not the player that I have issue with. Lopez, when healthy, is a low-post animal with pretty good touch and can stretch to 18-feet. He also makes his free throws and can alter shots at the rim a little bit. Those are reasons why he's been an All-Star, as you already said. I just have concerns with his foot that has sidelined him. We're already dealing with Pekovic and his foot. It just feels like we're swapping one good center for a marginally better one while giving Muhammad and a first away, while recognizing that the big man we're bringing in also has foot concerns. For me, I'd stay away from that trade and probably pursue a different one.
Q12543 wrote:So trying to make the playoffs is a dumb move!? Again, Sam Hinkie has a spot reserved for you in his front office.
At the cost of a first round pick, yes it is a dumb move this early in the rebuild. Hinkie hasn't even sniffed the playoffs so he has no idea what this situation is like. If we keep this pick it turns into a second rounder moving forward so we can trade it right away (Payne pick still isn't until 2017 because of this pick) for something that can help us make the playoffs next year and moving forward.
Using your logic, you're comfortable missing the playoffs til 2021 or every time the Wolves trade a protected first.
The longer they miss the playoffs, the less likely it feels like they'll ever make it back.
Ya, the whole part where I mentioned getting help to make the playoffs next year and beyond really says I am comfortable waiting until 2021. SMH. For reference, Westbrook and Durant made their first playoff appearance in their 2nd and 3rd years. We're a year ahead of schedule.
A pick in the top 12 doesn't exactly constitute as help. Looking at this team it goes back to the same problem. We don't have a GM or a coach. There's no real structure at this point. This is the kind of stuff that scared Stephen Curry away as a draft pick. That's not enticing to players who seek stability.
The general problem I think me an Q have with your idea is that every year someone looks for an excuse to keep losing and given that we're 11 going on 12 years into it, when is enough enough? You know how many times we've looked at past rosters and lied to ourselves thinking "give it 3 years and we should finally make the playoffs. Just wait for this Clipper pick to go away or now this Celtic pick to expire or the Atlanta pick" "oh Dallas and San Antonio should fall off soon, that's when we'll make our push" (always loved this one) By the time we've pushed back the arrival date, the window of opportunity is gonna be short to do anything of significance, I'm not sure all of the suffering will be worth it.
Q12543 wrote:So trying to make the playoffs is a dumb move!? Again, Sam Hinkie has a spot reserved for you in his front office.
At the cost of a first round pick, yes it is a dumb move this early in the rebuild. Hinkie hasn't even sniffed the playoffs so he has no idea what this situation is like. If we keep this pick it turns into a second rounder moving forward so we can trade it right away (Payne pick still isn't until 2017 because of this pick) for something that can help us make the playoffs next year and moving forward.
Using your logic, you're comfortable missing the playoffs til 2021 or every time the Wolves trade a protected first.
The longer they miss the playoffs, the less likely it feels like they'll ever make it back.
Ya, the whole part where I mentioned getting help to make the playoffs next year and beyond really says I am comfortable waiting until 2021. SMH. For reference, Westbrook and Durant made their first playoff appearance in their 2nd and 3rd years. We're a year ahead of schedule.
A pick in the top 12 doesn't exactly constitute as help. Looking at this team it goes back to the same problem. We don't have a GM or a coach. There's no real structure at this point. This is the kind of stuff that scared Stephen Curry away as a draft pick. That's not enticing to players who seek stability.
The general problem I think me an Q have with your idea is that every year someone looks for an excuse to keep losing and given that we're 11 going on 12 years into it, when is enough enough? You know how many times we've looked at past rosters and lied to ourselves thinking "give it 3 years and we should finally make the playoffs. Just wait for this Clipper pick to go away or now this Celtic pick to expire or the Atlanta pick" "oh Dallas and San Antonio should fall off soon, that's when we'll make our push" (always loved this one) By the time we've pushed back the arrival date, the window of opportunity is gonna be short to do anything of significance, I'm not sure all of the suffering will be worth it.
You and Q are delusional if you think this team is in the same situation as the last 11 years always waiting for the next year and never having it payoff. We have two number 1 overall pick studs on this team that we've never had that are in their rookie and sophomore years (aka not ready to carry a team to the playoffs yet). How is that remotely close to the window closing? The window hasn't even opened for them yet, let alone already closing if we wait 1 whole year. This is the kind of lack of patience that could result in us not making the playoffs and not keeping our pick.
Also, stop insinuating I want the lottery pick to add another rookie to this team. I've said 3 times now that it's better for the team to keep the pick as a trade asset. What's likely to return more in a trade? Bazz and Dieng alone or adding a lottery pick with them? Those assets can help get us someone who can help right away.
I think it's a terrible cop-out to say we should go for the playoffs now because if we push it back again it may never happen like the last 11 years when we have completely different building blocks in this version of the rebuild. I also think it's another cop-out to say we shouldn't try to keep our pick because a rookie wouldn't help us make the playoffs next year knowing the pick could be a valuable trade asset to get someone who could help us make the playoffs. Missing the playoffs in Wiggins' and Towns' sophomore and rookie years is not the end of the world and it could help us get a piece that could help us make the playoffs next year when they take another step toward stardom. Let's not bring the doom and gloom talk of postponing the playoffs for one more year as another year towards the window closing when our window hasn't even opened yet.
Here's how I look at it. Thanks to Kaaaaahn we're in this ridiculous position where we can finish 1 or 2 spots out of the playoffs and still miss out on a 1st round draft pick. Nevertheless, I think we should try to make the playoffs - but not if that means relying more on our 30+ year old vets or trading any of our younger players or future 1st round picks to get another 30+ year old vet. In other words, we should compete hard for a playoff spot relying primarily on our young core of Ricky, LaVine, Wiggins, KAT, Shabazz, Belly, and Dieng. If we can trade Dieng for a good younger vet who can help us now and in the future, I'd be fine with that.
I'll add that the value of our 1st round pick that we might lose (a pick in the low teens) isn't in the players we might draft. It's in the trade value the pick might have, especially when combined with a Kevin Martin, Dieng or Shabazz, to bring in a relatively young vet who could fill a need and make us a better team next season.
If not for Kahn's deal, there wouldn't be any argument about whether we should compete for a playoff birth. Then making the playoffs would only cost us a few spots in the draft order (e.g., 15 or 16 instead of 13 or 14). But the stage is set to end up with no pick if we fall just short of making the playoffs. And this team is likely to be in that borderline territory. That's why Kahns' position is reasonable even though some of us disagree.
Camden0916 wrote:(Pek, Bazz, pick for Brook Lopez for example)
I think I just threw up in my mouth...
19.5/8.2/2.2 blocks on the same contract length as Pek makes you throw up? Lopez has only played less than 72 games twice in his 8 year career. He puts an all-star in his prime (27) in our starting lineup for a guy who can't stay on the court, a sixth man scorer and a lottery pick in a weak draft. That's a steal. The starting lineup is missing scoring and he's a huge upgrade over KG.
It's not the player that I have issue with. Lopez, when healthy, is a low-post animal with pretty good touch and can stretch to 18-feet. He also makes his free throws and can alter shots at the rim a little bit. Those are reasons why he's been an All-Star, as you already said. I just have concerns with his foot that has sidelined him. We're already dealing with Pekovic and his foot. It just feels like we're swapping one good center for a marginally better one while giving Muhammad and a first away, while recognizing that the big man we're bringing in also has foot concerns. For me, I'd stay away from that trade and probably pursue a different one.
That foot hasn't really sidelined him since 2013. His injury history is far less troubling than Pekovic. And for that alone, I think he's more than marginally better than Pekovic.
Lopez has missed significant chunks of games in 2 out of 8 seasons. Hasn't Pek missed significant chunks of games in each of his 6 seasons? Pek has never played more than 65 games. Lopez has played at least 72 games 5 times now.
The Pek we remember on the court is long gone. Moving forward, there's no debate which center has a better future. And it's not a marginal difference.
To me this is hypothetical because the playoffs are unlikely but there is a small glimmer of hope. So if it's playoffs or a bit of tanking I take playoffs.
Keep in mind it's not just give up a first round pick or nothing. The Wolves could end up having to give up two 2nd round picks of the 1st is never conveyed. Are those really valuable especially if the Wolves do make the jump to being a playoff team? No but they do have value and I like having 2nd rounders because it gives you a shot at cheap talent and stashing overseas players. If this team's success is based on taking for the #10 overall pick this next year...well that means we are screwed. I know that's not what was being put forth here it's the idea of adding another asset to upgrade the team this offseason. I don't really think that is needed but I'll be happy if we are able to pick another player at that spot rather than using it in a trade.
