Robson's latest article

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, Go here to see how B-ball reference calculates Ortg and Drtg. It will make your eyes water.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

[Monster]

Sorry I simple just can't see Lavine "outplaying" Martin in any phase of the game right now and I support both guys. 5 games of stats and observation is what we have to go on but thats a tough one to agree with for me.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

To be fair... with a young team like the Wolves... a 24 ppg scorer (per 36 minutes) has a role if used correctly. That's what Martin is in a small sample size. Last season, he averaged 28 ppg or more in 1/4 of the games he played.

That's legit scoring. Does it come at a price in other ways? Maybe... probably.

I just cringe a bit when I see LaVine and "ouplaying" in any context right now. There's very little I like about the kid's game thus far. We all have players we like to watch or not watch play. And I can definitely see why Martin is a guy many people don't like to watch.

But he's a better player than Zach LaVine right now. Maybe dumping Martin and using those minutes for LaVine will change that because at least LaVine will be playing a position he has promise and possibly even legit potential at.


Note: basketballreference has different O and D ratings:

O Ratings:
Martin - 113
LaVine - 87

D Ratings:
Martin - 102
LaVine - 101

B-Refs ratings have always been wrong. They do some weird thing were your rating can change based on how guys play when you aren't even on the court. Look at KG and Prince's ratings and tell me how they are plus anything this year.

Also Martin isn't even shooting 3's at a better clip than Zach. Literally the only things he statistically does better than Zach at this point is score more and do it more efficiently and turn it over less

Hmmm . . . yeah, scoring more, doing it more efficiently, and not turning it over as much. Bench that guy!

I don't get the assumption that LaVine is going to be better than Martin, and that all we need to do is dump Martin, give LaVine his minutes, and we'll get a guy better than Martin. What has LaVine done to earn that confidence? Martin is defensively weak, nobody disputes that, but he's one of the best offensive players we've had in a long time and he can stretch the floor and draw fouls, a proven 20 PPG player over his career. And he's on a decent contract. Don't pull numbers from 4 games this year, take his numbers over the course of his career, and he's a very safe bet--not a perfect, well-rounded player, but a safe bet. At worst a 6th or 7th man, who deserves more than just 15 minutes. How much better do you really expect LaVine to get?

LaVine being a terrible PG is masking the fact that he hasn't really proven that he can even be a consistently good SG either. I think he should get minutes there to prove himself, but a lot of people seem to assume that all we need to do is play him at the 2 and it's a foregone conclusion he'll be good, and not another McCants (and every game I watch it is increasingly looking like he's more like McCants than Monta Ellis, Gerald Green, or Jamal Crawford--and even those guys in lean years are not always net positives, just streaky one-way players).

LaVine is a bad decision maker, bottom line. Watch how many times he makes the wrong decision with the ball, taking terrible shots or driving into a crowd with no hope of scoring, or leaving his feet before deciding who to pass it to. He's young, but unless he turns that around soon, guys like that almost never end up as valuable as guys like Martin. I really hope I'm wrong, but I see a lot of warning flags with that guy so the support he gets from some corners on this board just escapes me.

*EDIT: Watch LaVine go off for 29 next game. It's the rule of Drew! If I criticize a guy, he's gotta have a big game next. :)

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe, Go here to see how B-ball reference calculates Ortg and Drtg. It will make your eyes water.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

I don't wanna!

I looked at that earlier... and got the hell out of there quickly. Way too under the bus for me. This is one case where I'm perfectly fine with the "many years of playing and watching basketball eye test"...

I hate Zach LaVine at PG and I think he puts every Wolves game in jeopardy when he's put in that position.


[Note: I haven't dislike a PG this much since T. Hudson was running the show... and he was infinitely better than LaVine even though you knew he was taking that 21 footer EVERY time on the P-N-R.]

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, Go here to see how B-ball reference calculates Ortg and Drtg. It will make your eyes water.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

I don't wanna!

I looked at that earlier... and got the hell out of there quickly. Way too under the bus for me. This is one case where I'm perfectly fine with the "many years of playing and watching basketball eye test"...

I hate Zach LaVine at PG and I think he puts every Wolves game in jeopardy when he's put in that position.


[Note: I haven't dislike a PG this much since T. Hudson was running the show... and he was infinitely better than LaVine even though you knew he was taking that 21 footer EVERY time on the P-N-R.]

Heh, yeah, believe me, I haven't parsed out what it all means, but I don't think one has to. All you need to know is that when looking at individual Drtg and Ortg in B-ball reference, take it with a big grain of salt. It is NOT the same as team points per 100 possessions scored (or allowed) when the player is on the floor.

[Monster]

Abe, Go here to see how B-ball reference calculates Ortg and Drtg. It will make your eyes water.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

I don't wanna!

I looked at that earlier... and got the hell out of there quickly. Way too under the bus for me. This is one case where I'm perfectly fine with the "many years of playing and watching basketball eye test"...

I hate Zach LaVine at PG and I think he puts every Wolves game in jeopardy when he's put in that position.


[Note: I haven't dislike a PG this much since T. Hudson was running the show... and he was infinitely better than LaVine even though you knew he was taking that 21 footer EVERY time on the P-N-R.]

Heh, yeah, believe me, I haven't parsed out what it all means, but I don't think one has to. All you need to know is that when looking at individual Drtg and Ortg in B-ball reference, take it with a big grain of salt. It is NOT the same as team points per 100 possessions scored (or allowed) when the player is on the floor.

Thanks to everyone that has pointed this issue out.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

It's on Sam to get a bigger sample size of Lavine at the 2. Right now two of our top three plus/minus lineups have Lavine playing the 2 next to Ricky. Until that changes I'm all aboard the Lavine should be playing next to Ricky and over Martin train. I think if we cut out Martin, Lavine and Bazz would both improve due to the added minutes and would cover Martin's production. The second unit would get better with the added ball movement adding Miller at point would provide. Miller, Lavine, NB and Dieng all pass the ball. Martin and Bazz don't. We have a 6th man scorer in Bazz and Zach is a better 3pt shooter than Martin this year and he posted numbers as good or better than Martin at times last year. What Martin brings to the table is replaceable. We just beat the Bulls without him. If he's so important that game wouldn't have been close. Other guys stepped up in the scoring role. If he was making plays for others or playing defense I'd be fine sticking with him, but he provides the most replaceable skill in the game in scoring. When he's out, other guys step up in the scoring role and provide help in other areas of the game like ball movement, rebounding, defense, etc. I don't like selfish basketball players and Martin is pretty much in DGAF mode since he lost his starting spot.

I'll add this. Doesn't it make sense to find out if Lavine can play the 2 now so we can make the right decisions on his team options coming up? If he's just as bad at the 2 then we shouldn't be picking up his 4th year option. Saying we don't know so we shouldn't try isn't good enough to me. That means another off season of questions instead of answers.

[Coolbreeze44]

Gotta side with Khans on this one. The zenith of our team performance this year has come in the short stints of Zach playing the 2 alongside Rubio. At a minimum that look warrants more time. And though it's just my opinion, I vehemently would argue Martin just plays too many minutes. I like the idea of KMart playing spot minutes, I just don't think he could live with that.

[Monster]

Good back and forth here.

Something else to consider. In 4 games in 28 minutes Martin has averaged 7.5 ppg just at the FT line. Some guys would be thrilled to score that many points period. He will level off there but will shoot the 3 better.

I will add I see Martin as a guy that moves the ball more than he seems to be given credit for.

I think a lot of us would be fine if Martin played closer to 25mpg or a little less than his 28mpg he has gotten. Like I have said before we don't know what role he will be ok with. What playoff team will just hand him a starting role with 30mpg? Idk when it comes to minutes the guy that's getting minutes we weren't expecting is Prince not Martin. I believe in the talent of both Bazz and Lavine to reduce the vets but I am ok with them having to earn it somewhat. Eventually there will be an injury or someone playing poorly etc that will open up minutes for a guy. Like Tobison's article points out its gonna be a bumpy ride be ready.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Minnesota: PG Darren Collison (2015: $5,013,559; 2016: $5,229,454)

Sacramento: SG Kevin Martin (2015: $7,085,000; 2016: $7,377,500)

Do it.