longstrangetrip wrote:I've already raved about CJ last night...who would have thought he would outplay Wiggins so badly? But the discussion has never been, and will never be, McCollum vs. Wig...it will always be McCollum vs. Bazz/Gorgui.
And even though CJ was the second best player on the winning team last night, I think it was close between him and Bazz/G. Minutes were fairly even (our guys played a combined 2 minutes more than CJ) so comparing production is fair. CJ scored 18 points on 18 shots, Bazz/G scored 21 on 15 shots (much more efficient). CJ had 6 rebounds and 4 assists, our pair had 9 rebounds and 1 assist. Finally, CJ had 4 TO's to none for our guys. So while Bazz/G won the offensive battle, I give the nod to CJ last night in a close call because of the way he defended Wig and the fact that Portland won.
This discussion is not over, and will be a talker for a long time
Don't know if it's quite that easy. McCollum is being asked to be the #2 guy on Portland. PLUS, be Lillard's backup when he needs a rest. Just extrapolating stats doesn't do on-court responsibilities and context any favors.
Fair point, abe...McCollum has a lot more pressure on him, especially since he's not a true PG in the least (almost as many TO's as assists for his career).
But your argument cuts both ways. NBA players always say they will perform better if given more regular minutes, and it's often proven to be true (certainly in CJ's case). Look at how Dieng performed his rookie year when he was given the starting job late in the year...he was a double double machine. Who knows how productive Bazz would be if he were a starter and allowed to get more in a groove rather than just playing in short spurts.
With offsetting variables, I think it's valid to just measure total production...and it was fairly even last night.
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
longstrangetrip wrote:I've already raved about CJ last night...who would have thought he would outplay Wiggins so badly? But the discussion has never been, and will never be, McCollum vs. Wig...it will always be McCollum vs. Bazz/Gorgui.
And even though CJ was the second best player on the winning team last night, I think it was close between him and Bazz/G. Minutes were fairly even (our guys played a combined 2 minutes more than CJ) so comparing production is fair. CJ scored 18 points on 18 shots, Bazz/G scored 21 on 15 shots (much more efficient). CJ had 6 rebounds and 4 assists, our pair had 9 rebounds and 1 assist. Finally, CJ had 4 TO's to none for our guys. So while Bazz/G won the offensive battle, I give the nod to CJ last night in a close call because of the way he defended Wig and the fact that Portland won.
This discussion is not over, and will be a talker for a long time
Don't know if it's quite that easy. McCollum is being asked to be the #2 guy on Portland. PLUS, be Lillard's backup when he needs a rest. Just extrapolating stats doesn't do on-court responsibilities and context any favors.
Fair point, abe...McCollum has a lot more pressure on him, especially since he's not a true PG in the least (almost as many TO's as assists for his career).
But your argument cuts both ways. NBA players always say they will perform better if given more regular minutes, and it's often proven to be true (certainly in CJ's case). Look at how Dieng performed his rookie year when he was given the starting job late in the year...he was a double double machine. Who knows how productive Bazz would be if he were a starter and allowed to get more in a groove rather than just playing in short spurts.
With offsetting variables, I think it's valid to just measure total production...and it was fairly even last night.
Meh. Being the #2 vs. two guys coming off the bench... I think Portland is happy where they are.
That's not to knock Muhammad or Dieng though...
One more thing... it's not like Portland is down one player. It's like a fantasy basketball 2-for-1 trade. Getting the production from McCollum instead of two bench guys like the Wolves are getting... leaves the door open for Portland to address other needs with that roster spot. (if that makes sense)
I'm not. His outside shot needs to improve quite a bit, but he will be great.
Me either. Biggest thing is his role has changed. He was all about the post up last year because they had zero post up players. Now they have guys down there clogging the paint more. Also he's actually playing with other quality NBA players so he's gotta take a step back. But not too back of course, you ask him to be aggressive and he forces bad shots, confidence goes down.
Just give him time to adjust to a new role. It's pretty hard to do, example Kevin Love
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
The rule changes destroyed Hassell's ability to play effectively in the NBA. He was a lousy offensive player. (His lack of free throw attempts was a humorous side project for me for a spell.) But he could defend when defenders were allowed to drape themselves all over offensive players. He was physical and willing and aided by the rules at the time.
Would he be better than Wiggins in today's NBA? Dunno. But I know when I think of the best defensive wings in Wolves history, I'm putting Hassell on that list well ahead of Wiggins based on his actual performances give the league at the time.
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
Yeah, Hassell was very good. I remember KG used to call him the best defender on the team, and when one of the top defenders of all time says you're better than him, that's saying a lot. It's funny, because he wasn't particularly long or athletic, but he made up for it with grit and smarts. I'd like to think Wig has the tools to be as good as Hassell was defensively, but time will tell...he has a long ways to go.
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
Yeah, Hassell was very good. I remember KG used to call him the best defender on the team, and when one of the top defenders of all time says you're better than him, that's saying a lot. It's funny, because he wasn't particularly long or athletic, but he made up for it with grit and smarts. I'd like to think Wig has the tools to be as good as Hassell was defensively, but time will tell...he has a long ways to go.
Actually, Hassel had some crazy long arms. I know this because I got his autograph at a grocery story a long ass time ago, and I watched him drop his pen on the ground and picked it up without bending over in his chair
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
Yeah, Hassell was very good. I remember KG used to call him the best defender on the team, and when one of the top defenders of all time says you're better than him, that's saying a lot. It's funny, because he wasn't particularly long or athletic, but he made up for it with grit and smarts. I'd like to think Wig has the tools to be as good as Hassell was defensively, but time will tell...he has a long ways to go.
Actually, Hassel had some crazy long arms. I know this because I got his autograph at a grocery story a long ass time ago, and I watched him drop his pen on the ground and picked it up without bending over in his chair
[Boring Abe Story Alert:]
I recently found out I'm a genetic freak... and not in a good way for a guy who's been playing basketball religiously for multiple decades.
While getting fitted for a new suit, the tailor made a quip about how short my arms are for my height. Huh? I'd never heard that before. And I wish the gal pal wasn't there to hear it either.
She called me T-Rex for three days after that. But it all makes sense now... I thought I averaged 0.5 rpg in my career because I was a ground-bound 6'0" white PG with a lazy streak when he wasn't passing or shooting. Nope. It was nothing to do with that. I didn't stand a chance with my T-Rex arms.
Whew. On a good note, I get to keep playing lazy with an excuse for my shoddy rebounding...
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
The rule changes destroyed Hassell's ability to play effectively in the NBA. He was a lousy offensive player. (His lack of free throw attempts was a humorous side project for me for a spell.) But he could defend when defenders were allowed to drape themselves all over offensive players. He was physical and willing and aided by the rules at the time.
Would he be better than Wiggins in today's NBA? Dunno. But I know when I think of the best defensive wings in Wolves history, I'm putting Hassell on that list well ahead of Wiggins based on his actual performances give the league at the time.
Hassell was not a grabby defender that year IMO. He was very quick very disciplined and was always the right space from the offensive player to either contest a jumper or keep the guy from driving. He was always in a guy's area. He clearly dropped off after that year defensively but it didn't have anything to do with rule changes.
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
The rule changes destroyed Hassell's ability to play effectively in the NBA. He was a lousy offensive player. (His lack of free throw attempts was a humorous side project for me for a spell.) But he could defend when defenders were allowed to drape themselves all over offensive players. He was physical and willing and aided by the rules at the time.
Would he be better than Wiggins in today's NBA? Dunno. But I know when I think of the best defensive wings in Wolves history, I'm putting Hassell on that list well ahead of Wiggins based on his actual performances give the league at the time.
Hassell was not a grabby defender that year IMO. He was very quick very disciplined and was always the right space from the offensive player to either contest a jumper or keep the guy from driving. He was always in a guy's area. He clearly dropped off after that year defensively but it didn't have anything to do with rule changes.
OK, but I disagree.
Go look at video from the 2004 series vs. Sacramento. The league changed significantly the next season. (for the better in my opinion) Hassell was still a plus defender with the new rules. But I don't think he was elite. Was anybody on the perimeter though? The difference was that when he wasn't elite... he couldn't offset his offensive shortcomings as well.
