Minnesota Sports Forum

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:17 am**

Camden wrote:Do we want LaVine playing better than his rookie class group or do we want LaVine to be the best player he can be at a position that is better for him? Your argument, in my opinion, means little to nothing, no offense. Elfrid Payton does not play for the Wolves. Zach LaVine does. LaVine might have better numbers than Payton, if that's how you're looking at it, but Payton can run an offense. Payton has much better instincts than LaVine at the point guard position. Also, LaVine's close to 6'6. He's a freak athlete. He's got a good shooting stroke and the talent/mentality to score. He's still a mismatch at SG. I don't know why that's being downplayed. You're acting like he's 6'2 Monta Ellis or Luke Ridnour when he's not, not even close.

I want both. Cam. If Zach's stats are better than the PGs drafted ahead of him despite all of them having more experience playing the point, that's a strong indicator that he is up to the job of playing that important position (or alternatively, all 4 of the other guys are busts, which I don't believe). But I also want him to realize his maximum potential, and I believe he can do that better matched up against a 6'3" guy than against the Jimmy Butler's and Klay Thompson's in the league.

By the way, if you listened to Sam's interview on the Hartman show, he says Zach is 6-4 1/2, not 6-6. And he's a very thin 6-4 1/2. By all means, play him at SG when the other team has a George Hill or a CJ McCollum there...but more often the opposing SG is going to look more like Andrew Wiggins than George Hill. Most of us have played basketball at some level or other, and know how frustrating it can be to play on both sides of the court lined up against a guy 3-4 inches longer than us. Why do we want to put Zach in that same uncomfortable position when we have two guys (Wiggins and Martin) perfectly capable of taking all the minutes at the 2, and Zach continues to put up good numbers at PG while showing improvement. I don't get it. Give me a length advantage over a length disadvantage every day.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:26 am**

monsterpile wrote:I got to give props to LST for sticking to this Lavine as PG thing. He is nearly alone in his position but keeps firing away.

Part of me thinks he is sitting behind the screen tapping his fingers together while laughing like one of those villains in movies all while enjoying the show he is producing with these takes. I only think that because it's funny I don't think he does that...well I think he did a few times last year when he kept ripping Love but I will forgive him for that I guess. Lol

I don't buy Lavine as a PG but I don't have the door completely closed on it either. He has the raw skills for it so that doesn't hold him back too much. It's mental and most of use are skeptical he can learn develop that aspect of the game. I do see a flash here and there of his playmaking ability and then something goes wrong sometimes in pretty bad fashion. Ultimately I think this all works itself out because I think Zach will break through at some point this season maybe sooner rather than later and become "a basketball player" and will be playing plenty of minutes doing his Zach Lavine thing and it will continue to trend more positive than negative.

Ha, it's lonely out here, monster...still waiting for someone other than Jim Pete and Sam Mitchell to join me in seeing the wisdom of Zach at PG! On this issue we seem to have a board that chooses to ignore statistics in evaluating Zach's competence at the point, and instead rely on strictly opinions (i.e. "he doesn't get his teammates involved in the offense", which is entirely disputed by his assists numbers).

My eye test tells me Zach is excellent from the PG position at popping shots off of picks and putting the ball on the floor and getting to the basket...and his assists numbers show that despite being a score-first PG, he is creating opportunities for his teammates at an acceptable rate too. Sam has this one right, I think.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:33 am**

Zach LaVine is 6'4.5" with his shoes off and 6'5.75" with shoes on. Luckily for athletes, they play basketball with shoes on. You continue to eat up every word Sam Mitchell spews as 100% straight-up truth when all he did in that interview (I didn't listen to it) is probably back up his own case for LaVine at PG.

Make no mistake about it, LaVine is close to 6'6" when he's on the floor. That measurement came from the NBA Combine and I highly doubt he's shrunk in two years. He's not at a disadvantage length-wise at either backcourt position and to say so is maddening.

PS: You can't argue that individual numbers are meaningless for Ricky Rubio and then argue that they are super important for Zach LaVine. That's nonsense. The eye test matters. Seeing the game matters. You're ignoring it to prove your side of the debate. You cannot tell me that LaVine has even rudimentary point guard instincts.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:44 am**

The question is are the Wolves better with Zach at PG or Jones. We know Miller is not playing big minutes night in and night out. I think Sam looks at it as the team is built LaVine is better at PG right now then SG and will get more minutes if he plays both. He seems to be developing just fine and is getting enough burn so I am fine doing this and hoping a KMartin trade happens to get us a backup PG that will move Zach to SG moving forward.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:50 am**

Camden wrote:Zach LaVine is 6'4.5" with his shoes off and 6'5.75" with shoes on. Luckily for athletes, they play basketball with shoes on. You continue to eat up every word Sam Mitchell spews as 100% straight-up truth when all he did in that interview (I didn't listen to it) is probably back up his own case for LaVine at PG.

Make no mistake about it, LaVine is close to 6'6" when he's on the floor. That measurement came from the NBA Combine and I highly doubt he's shrunk in two years. He's not at a disadvantage length-wise at either backcourt position and to say so is maddening.

PS: You can't argue that individual numbers are meaningless for Ricky Rubio and then argue that they are super important for Zach LaVine. That's nonsense. The eye test matters. Seeing the game matters. You're ignoring it to prove your side of the debate. You cannot tell me that LaVine has even rudimentary point guard instincts.

And Jimmy Butler outweighed Zach by 40 pounds at the combine...I don't want Zach matched up with that kind of disadvantage, and he will seldom see it playing the point. Sam thinks he is undersized to play the 2 most nights, and I agree. If you think Zach has sufficient size to play SG every night, we're just going to have to disagree on that one. Give me the size advantage he enjoys most nights at the point.

I don't understand your point about arguing individual numbers are meaningless for Ricky Rubio...who's doing that? Ricky is, and should be, a better PG than Zach, and his numbers prove it...that's why Zach backs him up. But Zach right now is performing better at PG than his young peer group, and that's not going to change even if the comparative statistics are inconvenient for the Zach-detractors.

And I'm not ignoring the eye test. I tend to put more stock in offensive statistics than eye test because they are decidedly more objective. But I find defense to be more difficult to evaluate statistically, so I tend to rely more on eye test than stats for defense. And anyone that didn't think Zach was overmatched last year in March and April most nights on the defensive side of the ball wasn't watching the games carefully. He simply isn't developed enough physically to guard guys like Butler, Thompson, Wade, etc.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:55 am**

longstrangetrip wrote:
Camden wrote:

And Jimmy Butler outweighed Zach by 40 pounds at the combine...I don't want Zach matched up with that kind of disadvantage, and he will seldom see it playing the point.

I agree with that and that might be a reason why Collionson is not the ideal PG. I wonder if a guy like Evan Turner would be a better backcourt player with LaVine. Gives us size to guard SG's and some PG skills.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:39 am**

You were arguing about a length disadvantage. LaVine's the same height or taller than 18 starting shooting guards, and 21 if we recognize him at 6'6" like his combine measurement indicates. Not including LaVine, the average starting shooting guard's weight is 208 lbs and eight of the SGs on this list are 200 lbs or less, not including LaVine. Guys, he's 20-years old. He's going to add weight. He just added close to 10 lbs over the summer. Also, none of these guys have the raw athleticism that he does. Stop acting like he's at a physical disadvantage when he's really not.

30. Nik Stauskas - 6'6", 205 lbs.
29. Andre Roberson - 6'7", 210 lbs.
28. Gary Harris - 6'4", 210 lbs.
27. Ben McLemore - 6'5", 195 lbs.
26. Courtney Lee - 6'5", 200 lbs.
25. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope - 6'5", 205 lbs.
24. C.J. McCollum - 6'4", 200 lbs.
23. Avery Bradley - 6'2", 180 lbs.
22. J.R. Smith - 6'6", 225 lbs.
21. Eric Gordon - 6'4", 215 lbs.
20. Bojan Bogdanovic - 6'8", 216 lbs.
19. Zach LaVine - 6'5", 189 lbs.
18. Rodney Hood - 6'8", 206 lbs.
17. Arron Afflalo - 6'5", 210 lbs.
16. Khris Middleton - 6'8", 234 lbs.
15. Demar DeRozan - 6'7", 220 lbs.
14. Victor Oladipo - 6'4", 210 lbs.
13. Monta Eliis - 6'3", 185 lbs.
12. J.J. Redick - 6'4", 190 lbs.
11. Wes Matthews - 6'5", 220 lbs.
10. Jordan Clarkson - 6'5", 194 lbs.
9. Danny Green - 6'6", 215 lbs.
8. P.J. Hairston - 6'6", 230 lbs.
7. Bradley Beal - 6'5", 207 lbs.
6. Kent Bazemore - 6'5", 201 lbs.
5. Jimmy Butler - 6'7", 220 lbs.
4. Brandon Knight - 6'3", 189 lbs.
3. Dwyane Wade - 6'4", 220 lbs.
2. Klay Thompson - 6'7", 215 lbs.
1. James Harden - 6'5", 220 lbs.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:17 am**

Camden wrote:You were arguing about a length disadvantage. LaVine's the same height or taller than 18 starting shooting guards, and 21 if we recognize him at 6'6" like his combine measurement indicates. Not including LaVine, the average starting shooting guard's weight is 208 lbs and eight of the SGs on this list are 200 lbs or less, not including LaVine. Guys, he's 20-years old. He's going to add weight. He just added close to 10 lbs over the summer. Also, none of these guys have the raw athleticism that he does. Stop acting like he's at a physical disadvantage when he's really not.

30. Nik Stauskas - 6'6", 205 lbs.
29. Andre Roberson - 6'7", 210 lbs.
28. Gary Harris - 6'4", 210 lbs.
27. Ben McLemore - 6'5", 195 lbs.
26. Courtney Lee - 6'5", 200 lbs.
25. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope - 6'5", 205 lbs.
24. C.J. McCollum - 6'4", 200 lbs.
23. Avery Bradley - 6'2", 180 lbs.
22. J.R. Smith - 6'6", 225 lbs.
21. Eric Gordon - 6'4", 215 lbs.
20. Bojan Bogdanovic - 6'8", 216 lbs.
19. Zach LaVine - 6'5", 189 lbs.
18. Rodney Hood - 6'8", 206 lbs.
17. Arron Afflalo - 6'5", 210 lbs.
16. Khris Middleton - 6'8", 234 lbs.
15. Demar DeRozan - 6'7", 220 lbs.
14. Victor Oladipo - 6'4", 210 lbs.
13. Monta Eliis - 6'3", 185 lbs.
12. J.J. Redick - 6'4", 190 lbs.
11. Wes Matthews - 6'5", 220 lbs.
10. Jordan Clarkson - 6'5", 194 lbs.
9. Danny Green - 6'6", 215 lbs.
8. P.J. Hairston - 6'6", 230 lbs.
7. Bradley Beal - 6'5", 207 lbs.
6. Kent Bazemore - 6'5", 201 lbs.
5. Jimmy Butler - 6'7", 220 lbs.
4. Brandon Knight - 6'3", 189 lbs.
3. Dwyane Wade - 6'4", 220 lbs.
2. Klay Thompson - 6'7", 215 lbs.
1. James Harden - 6'5", 220 lbs.

Hmm...a quick look at that list tells me that Zach is middle of the pack in SG height, but weighs less than every other SG except Ellis, Knight and Bradley. I wonder if that's why those three guys are considered by many to be more PGs than SGs...good coaches don't like unattractive size disadvantages. I'll match up Zach against those three and a few others any day at SG (although I still prefer him at PG), but don't make the kid go up night after night against so many of the other guys who have 30+ pounds on him...that's just not fair to him. I agree that he is likely to put on some weight (although we keep waiting for some guys like KG to fill out, and some never do), but the issue is not where he belongs down the road...it's where he belongs now. I have no problem with Zach backing up Wig at the 2 eventually if he gets stronger, Martin leaves, and Tyus (or someone else) proves to be an adequate backup to Ricky...and Ricky shows he can play 70 games. That very well may be his final destiny. But until those three (or 4) things happen, Zach fits this team better at PG...and stats show he's doing a terrific job relative to other young PGs. Give the guy a chance to continue developing at a position that takes almost every NBA time to master! He's either going to become a very good PG, or as Flip said so many times, these PG minutes will help him become a better SG down the road.

The issue here seems to me to be that the "Zach needs to be a SG" crowd is relying mostly on eye test and opinion, while the other side (admittedly a lonely side with pretty much only Sam, Jim Pete and me currently!) points to hard data and matchup size to support their case. I'm going to continue to favor the latter until the stats prove that Sam is wrong. If that ever happens, and Zach starts delivering stats at the bottom of his peer group rather than the top, I'll gladly move out of my lonely place and join all of you. Until then, all the hard data tells me Zach is right where he belongs.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:45 am**

Funny how Zach seems to be such a polarizing figure on this forum, and how he gets so much of our attention. But he gets that attention not for what he has done, but for what circumstances his coaches have brought upon him. I'm trying really hard to enjoy his development and ignore what position he lines up at. I just hope his coach doesn't do him more harm than good in the long run. I'm legitimately concerned about that.

Posted: **Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:50 am**

the biggest question to me is, are we going with Wigg at SG long term? because if it is the best position for Wigg, he should play like 36 minutes per game there and Lavine has to be our backup combo guard or PG and play instead of the guy who shall not be named, when iron legs of this guy needs some repairs

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