Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:


I've been trying to point out the unfavorable comparisons with other recent very high draft picks... at least with the ones that panned out. We shouldn't be comparing him to the crappy picks yet. With the good ones, you can see their impact early. I guess the hope is that Wiggins is an anomaly. There's still plenty of time.

As for the stuff with Bryant...
"I remember being Andrew Wiggins," [Bryant] said. "I remember playing against Michael my first year. To be here tonight and play against him, seeing the baby face and the footwork and the little technique things he's going to be much sharper at as time goes on, it's like looking at a reflection of myself 19 years ago. It was pretty cool."

That's the quote I saw about Wiggins. Is there anything else? Because I wouldn't put that quote as a definitive "Holy Shit, Wiggins is gonna be great" quote. Only a quote about a young talented prospect that has a lot to learn.

And let's not forget, Kobe Bryant was a fan of Wes Johnson too.

Read - I am trying to stack the deck or create a straw man argument to prove that AW won't be a great player.

Please explain to me how AW's draft position has any bearing whatsoever on who he is today and can become tomorrow. The only thing draft position determines, is how well management predicted future performance. It has absolutely zero to do with how a player may or may not develop.

Here is a comparison that I can argue is a much better representation.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6430/jimmy-butler

Maybe our so called coach should start worrying about his own job. The guy just called an end of game play to get a bit player a 22ft 2pt fadeaway jumper, down 4 with ten seconds left in the game and no timeouts. Am I the only who sees the problem with this.

If Flip is using only 5 percent of his offense (which we all know is a lie), maybe he should try a different 5%, because what he is using isn't working!

Q, when you say "offensive oriented", is that your way of saying defensive liability when speaking about Martin, Bud, Daniels????

twolf921 wrote:Fine root for the kid to fail, changing your opinion after every game. He's still learning and he doesn't even have a guy to pass him the ball. It's ridiculous to overreact after each game. Is Paul George's rookie season a good comparison or Demar DeRozan? Sometimes it takes a year. Giannis didn't do anything much last year but show flashes and now people think he's the next big thing. Love had 8 pts and 8 Rebs last night...does he suck too? Wiggins out rebounded him. I am as frustrated by this season as all of you but I'm still going to look forward to going to the Cle game tomorrow, wearing my Wiggins jersey proudly and root for my team and hope Wiggins torches the Cavs.

Who is rooting for him to fail!? Has anyone here been calling him a certain bust or saying "I told you so"? We all desperately want him to succeed. I can't think of a poster on this board that would rather be proven right about a player than see the Timberwolves succeed. We have some really loyal fans here, Abe included.

The fact is that Wiggins hasn't just had one or two off nights, he's had a whole series of them. When you compare his rookie year thus far to all of the players you mention - George, Love, DeRozan, Giannis - he is behind them. We all hope he improves as the season progresses, but the reality is he is behind his predecessors that were drafted in a similar position.

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:


I've been trying to point out the unfavorable comparisons with other recent very high draft picks... at least with the ones that panned out. We shouldn't be comparing him to the crappy picks yet. With the good ones, you can see their impact early. I guess the hope is that Wiggins is an anomaly. There's still plenty of time.

As for the stuff with Bryant...
"I remember being Andrew Wiggins," [Bryant] said. "I remember playing against Michael my first year. To be here tonight and play against him, seeing the baby face and the footwork and the little technique things he's going to be much sharper at as time goes on, it's like looking at a reflection of myself 19 years ago. It was pretty cool."

That's the quote I saw about Wiggins. Is there anything else? Because I wouldn't put that quote as a definitive "Holy Shit, Wiggins is gonna be great" quote. Only a quote about a young talented prospect that has a lot to learn.

And let's not forget, Kobe Bryant was a fan of Wes Johnson too.

Read - I am trying to stack the deck or create a straw man argument to prove that AW won't be a great player.

Please explain to me how AW's draft position has any bearing whatsoever on who he is today and can become tomorrow. The only thing draft position determines, is how well management predicted future performance. It has absolutely zero to do with how a player may or may not develop.

Here is a comparison that I can argue is a much better representation.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6430/jimmy-butler

Huh?

You pointed out an anomaly. An end-of-the-round 1st round pick that is turning into an All Star. That's awesome. But it doesn't work out that well that often. You know what has better odds of working out?

Drafting #1.

Antony Davis
Kyrie Irving
John Wall
Blake Griffin
Derrick Rose

And each showed signs almost immediately of being stars. The only recent pick who didn't was Anthony Bennett. Along with Bargnani and Kwame Brown and even back to Olowakandi, they looked VERY BAD from the get-go.

What's this tell us? Either you are a star and deserve the #1 pick or you don't. Wiggins, oddly enough, is still in the middle of those two groups. He has NOT made the impact of the top guys on the list. But he's certainly looked better than Bennett.

Does this tell us anything?

Maybe. Probably not. But it is NOT THE NORM for a recent #1 pick to struggle as much as WIggins has and still become a superstar. Doesn't mean it's not possible. Only that it's a departure from what we've seen in recent years.

He's in the middle offensively!

We are significantly undervaluing his defensive abilities. I remember a poster on here saying we should give Love a pass on D because he expended so much energy on offense. Shouldn't that work in reverse considering wiggins is usually guarding the best opposing player?

Most of the guy you compare him to are PG's and were drafted high due to their offense, and that just isn't the case with AW. His defense was his calling card, and he has shown why he was regarded so highly. Everyone knew his offense was going to take time.

You harp on others about their expectations for the team record wise, but yet you are just as guilty if you expected big offensive numbers out of the gate from Wiggins. Butler is a good comparison becasue he came in as a bad shooter with a poor handle but very good defensive instincts and athleticism.

Abe, how many of those guys are winning BB players. LAC weren't doing anything until they got CP3. Cleveland was bottom of the barrel in the east. Wall has just started to make a difference in his fourth and fifth seasons. What you are looking at is a very limited view of their overall play. I could argue that guarding the best backcourt player is the worse scenario for a player stats wise.

sjm34 wrote:Abe, how many of those guys are winning BB players. LAC weren't doing anything until they got CP3. Cleveland was bottom of the barrel in the east. Wall has just started to make a difference in his fourth and fifth seasons. What you are looking at is a very limited view of their overall play. I could argue that guarding the best backcourt player is the worse scenario for a player stats wise.

I think Wiggins' impact defensively is creating its own narrative on this board. He's a willing defender. But, he's nothing close to a game-changing defensive presence. Can he become that on the perimeter in this day and age?

It'll be an uphill battle. There's only so much you can do to stop today's uber-talented wings without the handcheck rules, switching and other things. So it becomes about team defense. The best defensive teams are made up of smart defensive players and schemes... even when some of those bit parts are inferior as man-to-man defenders.

Since perimeter defense can only take you so far... I contend being dominant offensively provides much more impact in today's game. As for "winning BB players"... I don't know where to go with that one. Each of those guys won more than Andrew Wiggins if that's what you want... but I'm not entirely sure where to go with that one.

I think everyone is going to be affected by having a rookie two guard learning to play point in real NBA games. This team is a disaster because of injuries. Where is the role model on the floor for Wiggins development in all of his known weaknesses? I think in light of the team philosophy being rolling the ball out and letting the rookies play regardless of their natural position, the rookies have responded precisely how I would have expected. I suspect there will be much more learning as the season progresses including improved stats for Wiggins in the last 40 games. There are so many amazing things to be disappointed about as a Minnesota sports fan. Singling out a rookie having ups and downs seems more expected than something worth worry about. I am more disappointed that Rubio truly seems injury prone, because I love watching him play.

As an aside I love how everyone is calling for Wiggins to become more like Shabazz. Boy times change quick on this board.

thedoper wrote:I think everyone is going to be affected by having a rookie two guard learning to play point in real NBA games. This team is a disaster because of injuries. Where is the role model on the floor for Wiggins development in all of his known weaknesses? I think in light of the team philosophy being rolling the ball out and letting the rookies play regardless of their natural position, the rookies have responded precisely how I would have expected. I suspect there will be much more learning as the season progresses including improved stats for Wiggins in the last 40 games. There are so many amazing things to be disappointed about as a Minnesota sports fan. Singling out a rookie having ups and downs seems more expected than something worth worry about. I am more disappointed that Rubio truly seems injury prone, because I love watching him play.

As an aside I love how everyone is calling for Wiggins to become more like Shabazz. Boy times change quick on this board.

It's true that no other top pick had to rely on a guy like Z. LaVine trying to learn to play PG. And it's one of the reasons I (and probably a few others) have been pretty easy on Wiggins thus far.

Wiggins has all the tools to be an elite defender, sure, but he has not excelled on defense well enough to be as putrid as he is on offense. Lack of toughness concerns me, but I think he's gritty enough on defense to overcome that in the future.

Did you watch the game last night? Andrew was having trouble with CJ Miles. CJ fucking Miles. Mainly because he isn't good at fighting through screens. There's also my issue with Wiggins not always hustling back on defense. He's a jogger. With the sprinting ability he has, jogging back shouldn't happen.

At this point, his offense is hard to watch and his defense is overrated. And in this league, offense matters more individually. Putting the ball in the hole. That's where stars are made.