Tanking Tim - Raptors at Wolves GDT

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I think you are setting Zach up for failure if you try to push him into the PG role. He's not a playmaker. He's a scorer and while the new style of PG is a more scoring focused role in today's game, there still needs to be a playmaker on the floor and I don't see Zach or Wiggins in that role. Parker worked in SA because Manu was a great playmaker. Westbrook does both. Paul does both. Curry does both. Kyrie doesn't but now he has Lebron and oh look, they are winning now that they added an elite playmaker next to Kyrie. That's why it makes sense to play Zach next to Ricky and not be his backup out there running the offense himself. Zach can be our PG if we get a Manu or Harden type guy at the two that can run the offense and make plays for others (i.e. Russell if we end up with him out of the draft) and let Zach use his extreme athletic advantage at the 1 to score a lot, but until we have that guy Zach just shouldn't be our PG.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Lip and Khans- You guys may end up being right about Zach, but I think if you were to ask him, he would say he is a PG...I suspect he just wants to forget about his lost SG season at UCLA. I've been watching more basketball than I should since Ricky went down, and it's been interesting to me to watch Zach and Lorenzo in the back court together. Lo is the natural PG, but Zach seems to really want to have the ball in his hands, and at times it's difficult to discern who is playing the point. Zach has been frustrating to watch this year, but I'm 100% on board with Flip's strategy of playing him moslty at PG. I agree with Flip that if he can handle the point, he can also handle SG, and I think Flip believes Zach's eventual competence at both maximizes his value to the team.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I've been clear on my stance on LaVine as PG... all season. I'm just not seeing it.

I saw this on Wikipedia: "As a senior, he averaged 28.5 points, 3.4 rebounds, and 2.5 assists per game."

A PG with that much skill with the ball that much only had 2.5 assists per game? Is that a typo? By the way, he was ranked as the #4 SG recruit on his way to UCLA.


[note: the rebounding seems off too. a guy with his hops in high school averaging only 3 per game? that doesn't seem right.]

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Well said, Alex. And I'll add as someone who has seen Zach live over 25 times this season that he does NOT have a "bad feel" for the game. He actually has a nice feel and sees the floor fairly well. He's turned the ball over a lot and made a number if boneheaded mistakes, but nothing out of the ordinary for a 19/20 year old one-and-done rookie forced to play out of position at the NBA's most difficult and competitive position. - Lip

Lip, We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not sure what player you are watching, but LaVine is absolutely lost in terms of finding open team mates, making crisp passes, and even bringing the ball up the floor without it getting picked clean from him on a number of occasions. Defensively we've been awful when he's on the floor.

The one area I've seen him look "natural" is when he's either pulling up for a shot or going coast to coast in the open floor. But when it comes to playing within the context of a team offensive system or team defense, he has minimal instincts in making the right plays or rotations.

[DNatagal]

I would love to see what LaVine will be like next year right now... He could be special, or a Beasley type bust. I am leaving towards special, he looks faster with the ball than other players without it. He needs to learn a few moves other than pull up long twos or all out drive to the rim. He did try a spin move ala Wiggins last game. A floater in the lane and the drop off pass would raise his game to a new level. Does he know how to play pick and roll yet on offense? Just another way to improve. He should be playing 2 v 2 all summer since that 2 man game is a staple in the NBA.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I would love to see what LaVine will be like next year right now... He could be special, or a Beasley type bust. I am leaving towards special, he looks faster with the ball than other players without it. He needs to learn a few moves other than pull up long twos or all out drive to the rim. He did try a spin move ala Wiggins last game. A floater in the lane and the drop off pass would raise his game to a new level. Does he know how to play pick and roll yet on offense? Just another way to improve. He should be playing 2 v 2 all summer since that 2 man game is a staple in the NBA.

Why not something in between? That's the most likely scenario.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Would Beasley be considered a bust if he was picked #13 instead of #2?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Would Beasley be considered a bust if he was picked #13 instead of #2?

Good point. And he does an effective job as a bench scorer that can get you points in a hurry, which is ultimately where I think Zach lands. That's not bad for a #13 pick....The problem is we already have that guy in Shabazz Muhammed!

We'll see. I hope Zach proves me wrong and becomes the star combo guard a lot of folks here envision. I still think it's a long shot.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I would love to see what LaVine will be like next year right now... He could be special, or a Beasley type bust. I am leaving towards special, he looks faster with the ball than other players without it. He needs to learn a few moves other than pull up long twos or all out drive to the rim. He did try a spin move ala Wiggins last game. A floater in the lane and the drop off pass would raise his game to a new level. Does he know how to play pick and roll yet on offense? Just another way to improve. He should be playing 2 v 2 all summer since that 2 man game is a staple in the NBA.

Why not something in between? That's the most likely scenario.

Something in between is the most boring answer there is and it doesn't make sense to already be pegging him in that area. With young guys you have your ceiling and floor and there isn't much point in fitting them in between those points for a few years. It is the most likely outcome statistically, but what's the point of putting Lavine in the biggest pool of possibility at 19-20 years old? That's giving up on what he could become pretty quick. I don't see why you would put him in that pool already just because it is the most likely outcome when he could become anything at this point.

[Lipoli390]

Well said, Alex. And I'll add as someone who has seen Zach live over 25 times this season that he does NOT have a "bad feel" for the game. He actually has a nice feel and sees the floor fairly well. He's turned the ball over a lot and made a number if boneheaded mistakes, but nothing out of the ordinary for a 19/20 year old one-and-done rookie forced to play out of position at the NBA's most difficult and competitive position. - Lip

Lip, We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not sure what player you are watching, but LaVine is absolutely lost in terms of finding open team mates, making crisp passes, and even bringing the ball up the floor without it getting picked clean from him on a number of occasions. Defensively we've been awful when he's on the floor.

The one area I've seen him look "natural" is when he's either pulling up for a shot or going coast to coast in the open floor. But when it comes to playing within the context of a team offensive system or team defense, he has minimal instincts in making the right plays or rotations.

Q -- Yep, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You mentioned Zach looking natural going coast to coast and on pull up jumpers. I'll add on the open jumpers that he has a nice feel for finding open spots for his jumpers and using his advanced ballhandling skills and lateral quickness to maneuver himself into those spots. He also uses screens well and has a nice feel for avoiding defenders and getting his shots up cleanly. He is also pretty good at getting open without the ball, but his opportunities for that have been limited by Flip's decision to play him primarily at the point. I agree that he hasn't excelled finding open teammates or making crisp passes. But I don't see him looking completely lost as a passer. He's made a number of nice passes amidst the bad ones. I'd worry if he were expected to become our starting PG. But I still see him as a SG and his instincts at this stage in his development are fine for that position.

When I think of clueless players I think of Gerald Geen his first few seasons. Zach's instincts are far better than Green's at the same points in their careers. I might worry if Zach were expected to become our starting PG. But I see his instincts as plenty good to project him as a future allstar at the SG position.

If you're right then Zach will be making the same mistakes with the same frequency this time next season because you can never fully overcome a complete lack of natural instincts. Yet, Gerald Green's experience shows us that even utterly clueless players can become very good rotation players and even starters after a few years of hard work and experience. So I see Zach's range somewhere between Gerald Green or Jamaal Crawford on the low end and Clyde Drexler on the high end.