Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:This is one of those games where hating on Teague makes no sense...

ZERO sense.

"I didn't see the game tonight" was the key part of that post. Lip... if you saw the game, you'd know why Teague played 33 minutes and why your statement deserves some criticism.

That being said... he was abysmal on Saturday. Mind-boggling bad. And it wasn't the shooting (2 - 14 fg) that was most alarming. The guy made the wrong choice repeatedly... time after time after time... down the court. Fumbled the ball just enough to bog things down. Over-dribbled. Et al.

He did not even look like a legit NBA player on Saturday. He was very good yesterday.

And that's a huge part of the problem. How can a seasoned vet look so poor one night and great the next night?



[Note: This can be filed away as blasphemy/slander... but I can't help think there's something behind the scenes going on sometimes. Personal problems. Booze. Etc. Teague's performance on Saturday was really that bad. And it wouldn't be unprecedented in the NBA. Heck, there's a sordid history of players who drank too much, partied too much, et al in the L over the past few decades.]

Teague's box score looked good against the Knicks, so I get why he played. But my point is a simple one, which I'll explain again at the risk of sounding like a broken record. I see no point in giving significant minutes to veterans who aren't likely to be here long term and who don't make long-term sense as part of trying to build a contender around KAT. Teague has one more year left on his deal unless he opts out. I'd like to encourage him to opt out by not playing him. In any event, I don't see him sticking around beyond next season and I wouldn't want him to even if he were so inclined.

Yes, playing Teague can help us win games, although his horrible play almost caused us to lose to the Wizards the night before. But as I've said repeatedly, the point at this junction isn't to win games. In fact, winning does nothing to improve the long-term prospects of this organization and can actually hurt those prospects to the extent it hurts our draft position. The goal should be the development and evaluation of our young players --Okogie, KBD, Tyus Jones and Dario Saric - maybe even Cam Reynolds. That means playing them more and our vets less. Giving Teague 30+ minutes does nothing to promote the long-term interests of this organization. So I'll always criticize giving Teague significant playing time the rest of this season. I'm not hating on him. He's not a bad player. He's just not a fit long term for this organization and it makes no sense to give him minutes that could go to younger players who at least might be part of the long-term picture.

We know what Jones is.

If the Wolves are conceding the season at this point by playing Cam Reynolds 30+ minutes while a healthy Teague sits... I'm out as a fan. We've been down that road too many times.

Fuck the #12 pick vs. the #11 pick. People are paying money to see an NBA product. It's a shame if they're literally throwing away money for 25% of the games. AGAIN! Play to win... and on Sunday, Teague was the best option for that for a team decimated by injuries.



[Note: That being said... Teague did not deserve 34 minutes on Saturday. ]

Camden wrote:I see what you're saying, Lip, but as far as point guard evaluations, I think we know what we have. Jones isn't a starter in this league, but he is a good backup guard that you can rely on to play competently on both ends of the floor. Rose is likely a free agent departure and Teague may or may not exercise his player option -- I'd argue one of the best possible outcomes would be for him to decline his option and re-sign here for more years but less annual money. When you look at the free agent pool, it's slim pickings and he is more than capable of starting for a winning team.

As for the player evaluation at the other positions, it's sensible to want quality point guard play to support them so that you get an accurate read of their abilities. What good would it be to try and evaluate Bates-Diop if he was playing the bulk of his minutes with Jared Terrell? That's the point I'm getting at there.

Good points, Cam. I just don't see Teague staying here long term. And I don't like his game because in my view he doesn't do a particularly good job of facilitating the offense, moving the ball, getting guys involved or making players around him better. That said, I have to agree with you that the list of free agent PG alternatives this summer is pretty slim.

Where I part company with you a bit is on what whether we know entirely what we have in Jones. He's still very young (23) and hasn't had substantial minutes on a conconsistent basis. Moreover, he's played very little with a fully healthy starting unit. Unfortunately, he won't have that chance the rest of this year in any event because RoCo is out. But I think it's important to take every possible chance to get a complete take on Jones before we start making roster moves this summer and decide what to offer him. For that reason, I think he should be starting at PG and playing 30-35 minutes a game every game the rest of the season. Actually, that should have been happening weeks ago in my view. I don't think we know completely what we have in Jaren Terrell either, but that's less important. Again, I think we need spend the rest of the season focusing mainly on developing and evaluating our young players because the only thing that makes sense for this organization now is to focus on the future - building a team around KAT.

This is one where we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I think we'd both agree it's not a huge deal. Ultimately, the future of the Wolves probably doesn't turn a lot on whether we play Teague or Jones at PG the rest of the season. The biggest determinants will be the upcoming June draft, free agency and what this organization does with Wiggins. I'm encouraged by what we've seen lately from KBD and I'm still optimistic about Okogie. And I might be alone on this, but I still see Tyus Jones as a potential solid starting PG for this team. I just don't know what the hell we're going to do with Wiggins.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:This is one of those games where hating on Teague makes no sense...

ZERO sense.

"I didn't see the game tonight" was the key part of that post. Lip... if you saw the game, you'd know why Teague played 33 minutes and why your statement deserves some criticism.

That being said... he was abysmal on Saturday. Mind-boggling bad. And it wasn't the shooting (2 - 14 fg) that was most alarming. The guy made the wrong choice repeatedly... time after time after time... down the court. Fumbled the ball just enough to bog things down. Over-dribbled. Et al.

He did not even look like a legit NBA player on Saturday. He was very good yesterday.

And that's a huge part of the problem. How can a seasoned vet look so poor one night and great the next night?



[Note: This can be filed away as blasphemy/slander... but I can't help think there's something behind the scenes going on sometimes. Personal problems. Booze. Etc. Teague's performance on Saturday was really that bad. And it wouldn't be unprecedented in the NBA. Heck, there's a sordid history of players who drank too much, partied too much, et al in the L over the past few decades.]

Teague's box score looked good against the Knicks, so I get why he played. But my point is a simple one, which I'll explain again at the risk of sounding like a broken record. I see no point in giving significant minutes to veterans who aren't likely to be here long term and who don't make long-term sense as part of trying to build a contender around KAT. Teague has one more year left on his deal unless he opts out. I'd like to encourage him to opt out by not playing him. In any event, I don't see him sticking around beyond next season and I wouldn't want him to even if he were so inclined.

Yes, playing Teague can help us win games, although his horrible play almost caused us to lose to the Wizards the night before. But as I've said repeatedly, the point at this junction isn't to win games. In fact, winning does nothing to improve the long-term prospects of this organization and can actually hurt those prospects to the extent it hurts our draft position. The goal should be the development and evaluation of our young players --Okogie, KBD, Tyus Jones and Dario Saric - maybe even Cam Reynolds. That means playing them more and our vets less. Giving Teague 30+ minutes does nothing to promote the long-term interests of this organization. So I'll always criticize giving Teague significant playing time the rest of this season. I'm not hating on him. He's not a bad player. He's just not a fit long term for this organization and it makes no sense to give him minutes that could go to younger players who at least might be part of the long-term picture.

We know what Jones is.

If the Wolves are conceding the season at this point by playing Cam Reynolds 30+ minutes while a healthy Teague sits... I'm out as a fan. We've been down that road too many times.

Fuck the #12 pick vs. the #11 pick. People are paying money to see an NBA product. It's a shame if they're literally throwing away money for 25% of the games. AGAIN! Play to win... and on Sunday, Teague was the best option for that for a team decimated by injuries.



[Note: That being said... Teague did not deserve 34 minutes on Saturday. ]

Abe - We just have different perspectives. I could care less whether we win games at this point in the season. My only interest in watching this team right now is seeing what we have or might have for the future. I know a lot of fans who feel the same way I do. I'd hate to see us throw away games by lack of effort. But if we play hard and lose with our young guys in an effort to develop and evaluating them, then I'm fine with it. In fact, I'd rather see that then watch Derrick Rose bail us out with an overtime home win against the Wizards as he builds his free agent value.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether we already know what we have in Tyus Jones - I don't think we do.

I haven't heard anyone say Jones isn't a fine piece for a team. But I think it's more than fair to say on the ample amount of minutes he's played that with his lack of shooting, size, and speed he's a back up PG at this point. If we were to make him our starter we'd be outmatched at the position nightly. Could we make it work? Maybe if all other positions were a plus. But why start roster building with an intended starter who is back up material? I don't think the answer for building around Towns is making Jones the starter. Sign him as a backup on a team friendly deal so he can do what he does well, make nice contributions off the bench. To me that is an absolute max of 6 per year.

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Camden wrote:This is one of those games where hating on Teague makes no sense...

ZERO sense.

"I didn't see the game tonight" was the key part of that post. Lip... if you saw the game, you'd know why Teague played 33 minutes and why your statement deserves some criticism.

That being said... he was abysmal on Saturday. Mind-boggling bad. And it wasn't the shooting (2 - 14 fg) that was most alarming. The guy made the wrong choice repeatedly... time after time after time... down the court. Fumbled the ball just enough to bog things down. Over-dribbled. Et al.

He did not even look like a legit NBA player on Saturday. He was very good yesterday.

And that's a huge part of the problem. How can a seasoned vet look so poor one night and great the next night?



[Note: This can be filed away as blasphemy/slander... but I can't help think there's something behind the scenes going on sometimes. Personal problems. Booze. Etc. Teague's performance on Saturday was really that bad. And it wouldn't be unprecedented in the NBA. Heck, there's a sordid history of players who drank too much, partied too much, et al in the L over the past few decades.]

Teague's box score looked good against the Knicks, so I get why he played. But my point is a simple one, which I'll explain again at the risk of sounding like a broken record. I see no point in giving significant minutes to veterans who aren't likely to be here long term and who don't make long-term sense as part of trying to build a contender around KAT. Teague has one more year left on his deal unless he opts out. I'd like to encourage him to opt out by not playing him. In any event, I don't see him sticking around beyond next season and I wouldn't want him to even if he were so inclined.

Yes, playing Teague can help us win games, although his horrible play almost caused us to lose to the Wizards the night before. But as I've said repeatedly, the point at this junction isn't to win games. In fact, winning does nothing to improve the long-term prospects of this organization and can actually hurt those prospects to the extent it hurts our draft position. The goal should be the development and evaluation of our young players --Okogie, KBD, Tyus Jones and Dario Saric - maybe even Cam Reynolds. That means playing them more and our vets less. Giving Teague 30+ minutes does nothing to promote the long-term interests of this organization. So I'll always criticize giving Teague significant playing time the rest of this season. I'm not hating on him. He's not a bad player. He's just not a fit long term for this organization and it makes no sense to give him minutes that could go to younger players who at least might be part of the long-term picture.

We know what Jones is.

If the Wolves are conceding the season at this point by playing Cam Reynolds 30+ minutes while a healthy Teague sits... I'm out as a fan. We've been down that road too many times.

Fuck the #12 pick vs. the #11 pick. People are paying money to see an NBA product. It's a shame if they're literally throwing away money for 25% of the games. AGAIN! Play to win... and on Sunday, Teague was the best option for that for a team decimated by injuries.



[Note: That being said... Teague did not deserve 34 minutes on Saturday. ]

Abe - We just have different perspectives. I could care less whether we win games at this point in the season. My only interest in watching this team right now is seeing what we have or might have for the future. I know a lot of fans who feel the same way I do. I'd hate to see us throw away games by lack of effort. But if we play hard and lose with our young guys in an effort to develop and evaluating them, then I'm fine with it. In fact, I'd rather see that then watch Derrick Rose bail us out with an overtime home win against the Wizards as he builds his free agent value.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether we already know what we have in Tyus Jones - I don't think we do.

It depends. Does Derrick Rose need to play30 mpg? Should Reynolds only play in 20 point blowouts? No. No.

But I'm WAY past the point where the Wolves should be tanking for a couple more percentage points in the lottery. It's a loser's mentality for a loser franchise. I care more about the people who ponied up a lot of money to attend home games vs. yet another Promise of Hope campaign created by tanking teams playing better teams that only try during carefully timed spurts. Don't cheat the fans. If you're telling me that people who spend $200+ to take their family to a game don't care who's playing or if the home team is trying to entertain them... then I guess I'm the anomaly and pro sports aren't for me.

As for development, I'm cool with giving some run to guys. But as we've seen before (for decades, literally), end-of-season games can be fools gold as much as anything else. Learning how to play and creating a culture is so much more critical for this franchise than determining who's the 6th guy off the bench next season.

thedoper wrote:I haven't heard anyone say Jones isn't a fine piece for a team. But I think it's more than fair to say on the ample amount of minutes he's played that with his lack of shooting, size, and speed he's a back up PG at this point. If we were to make him our starter we'd be outmatched at the position nightly. Could we make it work? Maybe if all other positions were a plus. But why start roster building with an intended starter who is back up material? I don't think the answer for building around Towns is making Jones the starter. Sign him as a backup on a team friendly deal so he can do what he does well, make nice contributions off the bench. To me that is an absolute max of 6 per year.

I doubt any other team sees him as a starter either. So yeah, I'm fine keeping him as depth. He won't get any sort of big offers.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I haven't heard anyone say Jones isn't a fine piece for a team. But I think it's more than fair to say on the ample amount of minutes he's played that with his lack of shooting, size, and speed he's a back up PG at this point. If we were to make him our starter we'd be outmatched at the position nightly. Could we make it work? Maybe if all other positions were a plus. But why start roster building with an intended starter who is back up material? I don't think the answer for building around Towns is making Jones the starter. Sign him as a backup on a team friendly deal so he can do what he does well, make nice contributions off the bench. To me that is an absolute max of 6 per year.

I doubt any other team sees him as a starter either. So yeah, I'm fine keeping him as depth. He won't get any sort of big offers.

Could see Phoenix throw $10M annually at him.

Camden0916 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I haven't heard anyone say Jones isn't a fine piece for a team. But I think it's more than fair to say on the ample amount of minutes he's played that with his lack of shooting, size, and speed he's a back up PG at this point. If we were to make him our starter we'd be outmatched at the position nightly. Could we make it work? Maybe if all other positions were a plus. But why start roster building with an intended starter who is back up material? I don't think the answer for building around Towns is making Jones the starter. Sign him as a backup on a team friendly deal so he can do what he does well, make nice contributions off the bench. To me that is an absolute max of 6 per year.

I doubt any other team sees him as a starter either. So yeah, I'm fine keeping him as depth. He won't get any sort of big offers.

Could see Phoenix throw $10M annually at him.

That would be his best shot at lots of PT. I think it's an overpay with what I've seen but watch him become a 45% 3pt shooter when he leaves.

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I haven't heard anyone say Jones isn't a fine piece for a team. But I think it's more than fair to say on the ample amount of minutes he's played that with his lack of shooting, size, and speed he's a back up PG at this point. If we were to make him our starter we'd be outmatched at the position nightly. Could we make it work? Maybe if all other positions were a plus. But why start roster building with an intended starter who is back up material? I don't think the answer for building around Towns is making Jones the starter. Sign him as a backup on a team friendly deal so he can do what he does well, make nice contributions off the bench. To me that is an absolute max of 6 per year.

I doubt any other team sees him as a starter either. So yeah, I'm fine keeping him as depth. He won't get any sort of big offers.

Could see Phoenix throw $10M annually at him.

That would be his best shot at lots of PT. I think it's an overpay with what I've seen but watch him become a 45% 3pt shooter when he leaves.

Yeah the Suns are a team that could make a bigger offer. If it's big enough you just have to move on and go after another player. It will be interesting to see what happens in the draft. Some teams could find themselves a new PG...including the Wolves.