Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Sorry, monster, but if this year's Wiggins was making Covington money, it'd still be a bad deal. Look at the group of wings in that salary range.

- Will Barton ($11.8M): 0.1 VORP, 1.2 WS, 12.8 PER

- T.J. Warren ($11.8M): 0.2 VORP, 2.2 WS, 16.4 PER

- Marcus Smart ($11.6M): 1.8 VORP, 4.6 WS, 13.0 PER

- Maurice Harkless ($10.8M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 12.4 PER

- Tony Snell ($10.6M): 0.3 VORP, 2.9 WS, 11.0 PER

- Terrance Ross ($10.5M): 0.4 VORP, 2.9 WS, 14.9 PER

- Bojan Bogdanovic ($10.5M): 1.1 VORP, 5.7 WS, 16.0 PER

- Robert Covington ($10.5M): 1.4 VORP, 2.6 WS, 13.4 PER

- Rudy Gay ($10.1M): 1.3 VORP, 3.9 WS, 18.2 PER

- Andre Roberson ($10.0M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 10.9 PER

- Danny Green ($10.0M): 2.0 VORP, 4.3 WS, 12.0 PER

- Josh Richardson ($9.4M): 1.4 VORP, 5.2 WS, 14.6 PER

- Bogdan Bogdanovic ($9.0M): 0.5 VORP, 2.0 WS, 14.2 PER

These are the stats that I chose to simply depict the type of value these players bring on the court. They aren't perfect metrics and I'm well aware of that, however, they are all useful stats nonetheless. Most of these wings are in the same vicinity of each other in one way or another. Below is Andrew Wiggins...

Andrew Wiggins ($25.5M): -0.6 VORP, 0.5 WS, 11.9 PER

Even if his annual salary was $9-12M, he would still be greatly overpaid and disappointing when compared to his peers of similar wages. I hate to call you a homer -- because we all are in one way other another -- but I don't think you understand or are willing to admit just how much Wiggins sucks. It's the harsh reality and I know it's difficult to accept.

Cam part of my angle is that at that money there would be teams that would either be willing to take a guy that sucks like Wiggins and/or hope he can become more. We have all seen teams hope for more out of guys like that. There are a few guys on that list that basically a couple years ago we thought of as 1 way bench players and now they have become 2 way solid starters. At that salary you can hope Wiggins becomes solid. You aren't wishing for star guy you are asking something completely different and something much more realistic. In fact an argument could be made at that price the Wolves shouldn't deal him until they got something worthwhile back. I'm not sure I would champion that argument.

Quite frankly at this point I'm actually moving towards looking to move Wiggins this summer if we don't have to pay to get rid of him beyond a bad contract coming back for a year or so. It would be interesting to see if a team like the Cavs would deal J.R. Smith and another guy signed for just next year for Wiggins. It would be kinda funny if it happened...and also sad as you pointed out at the end of your post.

I'd consider trading Wiggins if we don't have to pay to get rid of him -- i.e., don't have to give up a future draft pick or any of our young players - Okogie, Tyus, KBD. But it would, of course, depend on what players/contracts we end up getting in return. If we could unload him for 1-year deals without giving up picks or the players I mentioned then I'm all in. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

The bottom line is that this organization has to have a plan to build around KAT without Wiggins as part of that plan. And that's true regardless of whether Wiggins is here or not. Whether Wiggins is here or not will have no impact on who we draft or on what young undeveloped players we sign as free agents - the two key mechanisms for building around KAT.

Wiggins' presence can impact playing time for our younger guys, but that's at the discretion of the head coach. Every game the rest of this season that we give significantly minutes to Rose, Teague, Gibson and Wiggins at the expense of more minutes for Tyus, Okogie, Saric and KBD is a game wasted - more evidence of an organization that is utterly clueless. I'm fine winning games the rest of the season, but winning with vets who are not likely to be part of a rebuild around KAT makes absolutely no sense.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Sorry, monster, but if this year's Wiggins was making Covington money, it'd still be a bad deal. Look at the group of wings in that salary range.

- Will Barton ($11.8M): 0.1 VORP, 1.2 WS, 12.8 PER

- T.J. Warren ($11.8M): 0.2 VORP, 2.2 WS, 16.4 PER

- Marcus Smart ($11.6M): 1.8 VORP, 4.6 WS, 13.0 PER

- Maurice Harkless ($10.8M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 12.4 PER

- Tony Snell ($10.6M): 0.3 VORP, 2.9 WS, 11.0 PER

- Terrance Ross ($10.5M): 0.4 VORP, 2.9 WS, 14.9 PER

- Bojan Bogdanovic ($10.5M): 1.1 VORP, 5.7 WS, 16.0 PER

- Robert Covington ($10.5M): 1.4 VORP, 2.6 WS, 13.4 PER

- Rudy Gay ($10.1M): 1.3 VORP, 3.9 WS, 18.2 PER

- Andre Roberson ($10.0M): 0.9 VORP, 2.2 WS, 10.9 PER

- Danny Green ($10.0M): 2.0 VORP, 4.3 WS, 12.0 PER

- Josh Richardson ($9.4M): 1.4 VORP, 5.2 WS, 14.6 PER

- Bogdan Bogdanovic ($9.0M): 0.5 VORP, 2.0 WS, 14.2 PER

These are the stats that I chose to simply depict the type of value these players bring on the court. They aren't perfect metrics and I'm well aware of that, however, they are all useful stats nonetheless. Most of these wings are in the same vicinity of each other in one way or another. Below is Andrew Wiggins...

Andrew Wiggins ($25.5M): -0.6 VORP, 0.5 WS, 11.9 PER

Even if his annual salary was $9-12M, he would still be greatly overpaid and disappointing when compared to his peers of similar wages. I hate to call you a homer -- because we all are in one way other another -- but I don't think you understand or are willing to admit just how much Wiggins sucks. It's the harsh reality and I know it's difficult to accept.

Cam part of my angle is that at that money there would be teams that would either be willing to take a guy that sucks like Wiggins and/or hope he can become more. We have all seen teams hope for more out of guys like that. There are a few guys on that list that basically a couple years ago we thought of as 1 way bench players and now they have become 2 way solid starters. At that salary you can hope Wiggins becomes solid. You aren't wishing for star guy you are asking something completely different and something much more realistic. In fact an argument could be made at that price the Wolves shouldn't deal him until they got something worthwhile back. I'm not sure I would champion that argument.

Quite frankly at this point I'm actually moving towards looking to move Wiggins this summer if we don't have to pay to get rid of him beyond a bad contract coming back for a year or so. It would be interesting to see if a team like the Cavs would deal J.R. Smith and another guy signed for just next year for Wiggins. It would be kinda funny if it happened...and also sad as you pointed out at the end of your post.

I'd consider trading Wiggins if we don't have to pay to get rid of him -- i.e., don't have to give up a future draft pick or any of our young players - Okogie, Tyus, KBD. But it would, of course, depend on what players/contracts we end up getting in return. If we could unload him for 1-year deals without giving up picks or the players I mentioned then I'm all in. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

The bottom line is that this organization has to have a plan to build around KAT without Wiggins as part of that plan. And that's true regardless of whether Wiggins is here or not. Whether Wiggins is here or not will have no impact on who we draft or on what young undeveloped players we sign as free agents - the two key mechanisms for building around KAT.

Wiggins' presence can impact playing time for our younger guys, but that's at the discretion of the head coach. Every game the rest of this season that we give significantly minutes to Rose, Teague, Gibson and Wiggins at the expense of more minutes for Tyus, Okogie, Saric and KBD is a game wasted - more evidence of an organization that is utterly clueless. I'm fine winning games the rest of the season, but winning with vets who are not likely to be part of a rebuild around KAT makes absolutely no sense.

Lip I agree with your premise thatWiggins should no longer really be figured into the equation of building around Towns. If he is on the roster though even though this thread is establishing how ordinary he is...how exactly is that going to be navigated with possible other players you do want to see matter (or have potential of doing so). It seems like you are either cutting the cord or just doing a self reclamation project getting the most out of a guy you can get...which again it pretty sad and seems kinda pointless.

I think there has to be teams out there that would be willing to take on Wiggins this summer. If not and the o lot option is having to pay to take him back or the contracts are basically so bad we may as well pay him ourselves then...we gotta hope the guy can shoot above 40% again (likely) and be a decent starter or somewhat helpful guy...which helps us next season and builds up his value a bit. It's obviously at a low point right now. My optimism about Wiggins is him not being completely worthless AND I think some team out there that probably isn't going to have any other place to spend their money for a couple years will take him and his potential or whatever.

Lip you and I have both held a bit of hope for Wiggins based on a possible coach that could get more out of him. Not many people
Are willing I hold out hope for that and I'm not banking on that myself. However IF we are talking about whether or not we have to pay to unload him or keep him around I do think the right coach for the entire roster...it's not completely insane to think that coach would get more out of Wiggins even if Wiggins mostly does the things he has done for the past however many years. Again it's not something I'm holding onto but I do also think a complete write off of that possibility (although it's best not to get any hope up) is not completely irrational. Again just having Wiggins being more effective in his use may make him more enticing to another team and we can stoke a deal. It's starting to feel like dealing Wiggins could be like when the Warriors moved Monte Ellis for Bogut. It makes sense but also didn't. We could move Wiggins for a wilted salad and it may move us in the right direction. I'm not eating it up but a fresh start/off-season with the team and his 2nd year of fatherhood maybe he clears his head and gets back to being just underwhelmingly efficient instead of horrendous. That would be sort of a win. As Abe has said though for well over a year that it probably isn't going to happen here. It's too bad and you never know how trades are gonna turn around. Look at how the Cousins trade worked out for the Kings. Not only did they get Buddy but they got a draft pick and got a better draft pick because they sucked the rest of the year. Even a woebegone franchise like the Kings apparently can do some positive things. It's our turn!!! Lol

Also I wrote way too damn much about Wiggins. Ugh i'm Not a crappy fan though. ;) lol

Monster - I think we're on the same page when it comes to Wiggins. I'd definitely shop Wiggins this offseason, but there's no way I'd give up one of our young players with talent (Okogie, Tyus, KBD) or a future pick (other than that the 2nd rounder we got from the Sixers) to entice some team to take him. Nor would I take back a bad player on a similar contract (length and amount). This is a situation where we'll have to be patient. Wiggins value around the League is at its low point. I honestly don't think it can go lower as I just don't see him regressing more statistically. As you suggest, the right coach could get a little more out of Wiggins, which would improve his trade value. In fact, even if he doesn't improve at all, his trade value probably goes up each year as his contract gets shorter.

The mistake wasn't dealing Love for Wiggins. That was a good calculated move based on Wiggins' talent, in spite of the scouting reports that questioned his handle and drive. The mistake was not trading him a couple years ago (or even a year ago) when it still had significant trade value. The worst thing the Wolves organization can do now is compound the mistake by being too eager to unload him and making a bad deal that gives up potentially valuable assets or takes on an almost equally bad contract even if the contract is a bit shorter or a few million less than Andrew's.

One thing this organization can do right now is shut down Towns the rest of the season to avoid any further knee problems even if his injury doesn't require surgery. Then I'd make Wiggins the focal point of the offense for the remainder of the season in the hope that he might catch fire and spark some interest in him around the League - even if it's just a couple teams. I'd do that in addition to playing the young guys rather than the vets as I've suggested many times before over the past several weeks.

But sadly, we have an organization that doesn't think strategically. It's so frustrating because this isn't rocket science. Anyone following the Wolves, and certainly the team's front office and ownership, have to know the season is over and that the future success of this team turns on retooling around KAT. And they have to know that Wiggins can't be realistically viewed as a significant part of that. Therefore, it should be crystal clear that it's all about our most talented young guys and future draft picks. That means every move should should focus on improving the team's draft position and developing/evaluating our current young talent.

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - I think we're on the same page when it comes to Wiggins. I'd definitely shop Wiggins this offseason, but there's no way I'd give up one of our young players with talent (Okogie, Tyus, KBD) or a future pick (other than that the 2nd rounder we got from the Sixers) to entice some team to take him. Nor would I take back a bad player on a similar contract (length and amount). This is a situation where we'll have to be patient. Wiggins value around the League is at its low point. I honestly don't think it can go lower as I just don't see him regressing more statistically. As you suggest, the right coach could get a little more out of Wiggins, which would improve his trade value. In fact, even if he doesn't improve at all, his trade value probably goes up each year as his contract gets shorter.

The mistake wasn't dealing Love for Wiggins. That was a good calculated move based on Wiggins' talent, in spite of the scouting reports that questioned his handle and drive. The mistake was not trading him a couple years ago (or even a year ago) when it still had significant trade value. The worst thing the Wolves organization can do now is compound the mistake by being too eager to unload him and making a bad deal that gives up potentially valuable assets or takes on an almost equally bad contract even if the contract is a bit shorter or a few million less than Andrew's.

One thing this organization can do right now is shut down Towns the rest of the season to avoid any further knee problems even if his injury doesn't require surgery. Then I'd make Wiggins the focal point of the offense for the remainder of the season in the hope that he might catch fire and spark some interest in him around the League - even if it's just a couple teams. I'd do that in addition to playing the young guys rather than the vets as I've suggested many times before over the past several weeks.

But sadly, we have an organization that doesn't think strategically. It's so frustrating because this isn't rocket science. Anyone following the Wolves, and certainly the team's front office and ownership, have to know the season is over and that the future success of this team turns on retooling around KAT. And they have to know that Wiggins can't be realistically viewed as a significant part of that. Therefore, it should be crystal clear that it's all about our most talented young guys and future draft picks. That means every move should should focus on improving the team's draft position and developing/evaluating our current young talent.

I agree with most of what you said here. I will add though that the mistakes of the Love trade after it was done (was a pretty damn good looking trade at the time) continues to bite this organization in the rear end. Thad Young was a nice piece in that deal and we got nothing out of him (Flip's passing was unfortunate or maybe KG being around could have been a positive). Yeah we could have moved Wiggins at some point earlier BUT people forget he was coming off a season where he was putting up some kinda like you know good stats for a not completely horrible Wolves team. Teams keep those types of guys and the Wolves did just that. I think Wiggins is most to blame here but I do think the organization and to some extent Thibs didn't help us get here. The bottom line is we have to figure out how to move on. Just as it is with Wiggins there are some rational reasons for hope for this re-re-re(x35)build* but also I get if people aren't getting too amped up for that. I'm not either. I'm looking for a team that can put together a playoff team and go from there. I don't think that's wildly out of the realm of possibility and it may even be kinda fun to watch. We will see. I'll be here for you as we go through the latest Wolves journey. Lol

*re-re-rebuild trademarked by Abe