Minnesota Sports Forum

kekgeek1 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:PPG given up with Butler: 109 (9th best in the league)

PPG given up without Butler: 140(dead last, by more than 8 points per game!)

Still a very small sample size, but I'll continue to update. While there are other factors in our defensive woes (Thibs' schemes, lack of a rim protector, poor PnR defense), they all fall far behind one fact: this team can play some defense with Jimmy on the court, and are helpless without him.

It's amazing how a wing can make that big of a difference, but the numbers don't lie. Amazing. Hopefully eventually Okogie can have that big of an impact. He certainly has the potential. His issues are on the other end of the court.

Thx for giving me a pass on my ridiculous sample size, Q :), but we know Jimmy will miss games for injury and BTB reasons, so the data will become more significant. I wish I could have seen Josh and Jimmy playing defense together last night...must have been fun to watch!

I know super small sample size but to continue to your point. Thibs keeps mentioning when the starters played last year they had the 7th best defense. Huge impact when Jimmy is in there.

To knock thibs you would hope your defensive system would not be so reliant on one player

Correct, which is why LST's observation is really not based on a small sample size. Last year we saw a similar pattern. He's one of these guys that does more than just guard his own man. He is a terrific team defender that does a bunch of positive stuff on that end. Let's hope Okogie is headed in the same direction. He certainly has the tools.

Jimmy makes are defense good.

Kat and wiggins (when engaged) can make our defense great.

Even with thibs' schemes.

longstrangetrip wrote:PPG given up with Butler: 109 (9th best in the league)

PPG given up without Butler: 140(dead last, by more than 8 points per game!)

Still a very small sample size, but I'll continue to update. While there are other factors in our defensive woes (Thibs' schemes, lack of a rim protector, poor PnR defense), they all fall far behind one fact: this team can play some defense with Jimmy on the court, and are helpless without him.

Is anyone surprised that the numbers are different when we take our best defender off the court. What happens when we take Towns off, or Wiggins off?

sjm34 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:PPG given up with Butler: 109 (9th best in the league)

PPG given up without Butler: 140(dead last, by more than 8 points per game!)

Still a very small sample size, but I'll continue to update. While there are other factors in our defensive woes (Thibs' schemes, lack of a rim protector, poor PnR defense), they all fall far behind one fact: this team can play some defense with Jimmy on the court, and are helpless without him.

Is anyone surprised that the numbers are different when we take our best defender off the court. What happens when we take Towns off, or Wiggins off?

Kat ON RTG OFF RTG

Off. 114.7 112.4
Def. 115.4 100.6

Wiggins

Off. 121.2 105.1
Def. 116 104.0

Teague's splits are by far the worst

Off. 114.5 111.8
Def. 118.9 95.9

Taj is also bad

Off 112.6 117.9
Def. 117.6 100.6

per nba.com

According to Second Spectrum tracking, the Wolves allowed their opponents to take 20 percent of their shots in the first six seconds of the shot clock.

THE CONTEXT
That was the league's highest rate.

For every team in the league, effective field goal percentage is highest in the first six seconds of the shot clock. Last season, league-wide effective field goal percentage was 59 percent in the first six seconds of the shot clock, 52 percent with 6-18 seconds on the clock, and just 43 percent in the last six seconds of the clock, according to Second Spectrum.

Highest percentage of opponent shots in first 6 seconds of shot clock

So good defense starts with good transition defense. And as was the case with the Wolves, bad defense starts with bad transition defense. The 20.1 points per game the Wolves allowed in transition were second most in the league, according to Synergy tracking, and the 110.1 points per 100 possessions they allowed overall had them in the bottom six defensively for the fourth straight season.

I didn't check the offensive stats, but I'll bet the Wolves were among the League's leaders in percentage of shots taken in the last six second of the shot clock -- which of course is not a good thing statisically. The stats show the Wolves lead the League in allowing shots early in the clock and it's likely we're among the leaders in percentage of shots taken at the end of the shot clock. The combination makes for terrible defense and a fairly high scoring offense that could even be significantly better.

As for why the Wolves transition defense is so bad, perhaps it's as simple as players not hustling back on defense. But I suspect a significant part of it is our poor offensive spacing with players standing in or near the paint more than most teams.

In any event, there's no doubt the Wolves defend much better when Butler's on the floor. And that stats tell us that the team also defends much better when Tyus is on the floor.

lipoli390 wrote:According to Second Spectrum tracking, the Wolves allowed their opponents to take 20 percent of their shots in the first six seconds of the shot clock.

THE CONTEXT
That was the league's highest rate.

For every team in the league, effective field goal percentage is highest in the first six seconds of the shot clock. Last season, league-wide effective field goal percentage was 59 percent in the first six seconds of the shot clock, 52 percent with 6-18 seconds on the clock, and just 43 percent in the last six seconds of the clock, according to Second Spectrum.

Highest percentage of opponent shots in first 6 seconds of shot clock

So good defense starts with good transition defense. And as was the case with the Wolves, bad defense starts with bad transition defense. The 20.1 points per game the Wolves allowed in transition were second most in the league, according to Synergy tracking, and the 110.1 points per 100 possessions they allowed overall had them in the bottom six defensively for the fourth straight season.

I didn't check the offensive stats, but I'll bet the Wolves were among the League's leaders in percentage of shots taken in the last six second of the shot clock -- which of course is not a good thing statisically. The stats show the Wolves lead the League in allowing shots early in the clock and it's likely we're among the leaders in percentage of shots taken at the end of the shot clock. The combination makes for terrible defense and a fairly high scoring offense that could even be significantly better.

As for why the Wolves transition defense is so bad, perhaps it's as simple as players not hustling back on defense. But I suspect a significant part of it is our poor offensive spacing with players standing in or near the paint more than most teams.

In any event, there's no doubt the Wolves defend much better when Butler's on the floor. And that stats tell us that the team also defends much better when Tyus is on the floor.

I'd assume those numbers were from last year? It will be interesting to see where this team is 10-15games in when it comes to transistion defense. It seems...much less bad this year. That was a point several of the podcast folks like the Dunc'd on made last year was if the Wolves could be middle of the pack in transition defense it would likely make them jump way up the defensive ratings also.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:According to Second Spectrum tracking, the Wolves allowed their opponents to take 20 percent of their shots in the first six seconds of the shot clock.

THE CONTEXT
That was the league's highest rate.

For every team in the league, effective field goal percentage is highest in the first six seconds of the shot clock. Last season, league-wide effective field goal percentage was 59 percent in the first six seconds of the shot clock, 52 percent with 6-18 seconds on the clock, and just 43 percent in the last six seconds of the clock, according to Second Spectrum.

Highest percentage of opponent shots in first 6 seconds of shot clock

So good defense starts with good transition defense. And as was the case with the Wolves, bad defense starts with bad transition defense. The 20.1 points per game the Wolves allowed in transition were second most in the league, according to Synergy tracking, and the 110.1 points per 100 possessions they allowed overall had them in the bottom six defensively for the fourth straight season.

I didn't check the offensive stats, but I'll bet the Wolves were among the League's leaders in percentage of shots taken in the last six second of the shot clock -- which of course is not a good thing statisically. The stats show the Wolves lead the League in allowing shots early in the clock and it's likely we're among the leaders in percentage of shots taken at the end of the shot clock. The combination makes for terrible defense and a fairly high scoring offense that could even be significantly better.

As for why the Wolves transition defense is so bad, perhaps it's as simple as players not hustling back on defense. But I suspect a significant part of it is our poor offensive spacing with players standing in or near the paint more than most teams.

In any event, there's no doubt the Wolves defend much better when Butler's on the floor. And that stats tell us that the team also defends much better when Tyus is on the floor.

I'd assume those numbers were from last year? It will be interesting to see where this team is 10-15games in when it comes to transistion defense. It seems...much less bad this year. That was a point several of the podcast folks like the Dunc'd on made last year was if the Wolves could be middle of the pack in transition defense it would likely make them jump way up the defensive ratings also.

Yep, those numbers were from last year. I agree that it will be interesting to see those same stats in a couple weeks.

crazy-canuck wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:PPG given up with Butler: 109 (9th best in the league)

PPG given up without Butler: 140(dead last, by more than 8 points per game!)

Still a very small sample size, but I'll continue to update. While there are other factors in our defensive woes (Thibs' schemes, lack of a rim protector, poor PnR defense), they all fall far behind one fact: this team can play some defense with Jimmy on the court, and are helpless without him.

Is anyone surprised that the numbers are different when we take our best defender off the court. What happens when we take Towns off, or Wiggins off?

Kat ON RTG OFF RTG

Off. 114.7 112.4
Def. 115.4 100.6

Wiggins

Off. 121.2 105.1
Def. 116 104.0

Teague's splits are by far the worst

Off. 114.5 111.8
Def. 118.9 95.9

Taj is also bad

Off 112.6 117.9
Def. 117.6 100.6

per nba.com

As you said, this is still a small sample size for this season. Luckily we have pretty much the same crew as last year, so we can look at all of 2017-18 data. Here it is:

Kat ON RTG OFF RTG

Off. 114.5 100.2
Def. 108.4 108.0

Wiggins

Off. 112.0 107.9
Def. 108.5 109.7

Butler

Off. 114.0 107.6
Def. 105.6 112.4

Taj

Off 112.5 106.4
Def. 108 109.4

Teague

Off 112.1 108.5
Def. 109.4 107.3


Here you can see that yes, Butler is a massive difference maker defensively. Look at how the defensive rating goes way up (not a good thing) when he's off the floor. For most everyone else, it didn't make much difference whether they were on or off.

On offense, you will see a similar theme with KAT. Look at the 14 point difference in offensive rating! And I don't even think we utilized him to his maximum ability last year.

As you said, this is still a small sample size for this season. Luckily we have pretty much the same crew as last year, so we can look at all of 2017-18 data. Here it is:

Kat ON RTG OFF RTG

Off. 114.5 100.2
Def. 108.4 108.0

Wiggins

Off. 112.0 107.9
Def. 108.5 109.7

Butler

Off. 114.0 107.6
Def. 105.6 112.4

Taj

Off 112.5 106.4
Def. 108 109.4

Teague

Off 112.1 108.5
Def. 109.4 107.3


Here you can see that yes, Butler is a massive difference maker defensively. Look at how the defensive rating goes way up (not a good thing) when he's off the floor. For most everyone else, it didn't make much difference whether they were on or off.

On offense, you will see a similar theme with KAT. Look at the 14 point difference in offensive rating! And I don't even think we utilized him to his maximum ability last year.