Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:All I know is that every single player hates Tom Thibodeau and wants to murder him with an ice pick through the ear.

I know this for certain.

Fact

WolvesFan21 wrote:I disagree about everyone playing hard. That's simply not true.

Of course it is objective but the wolves are in the top 10 in deflections, charges taken, contested 3pt shots, recovering loose balls, 11th in contested shots. 12th in loose ball %.

So of course hustle is objective but in the hustle statistics we are in the top half in all of them

kekgeek1 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I disagree about everyone playing hard. That's simply not true.

Of course it is objective but the wolves are in the top 10 in deflections, charges taken, contested 3pt shots, recovering loose balls, 11th in contested shots. 12th in loose ball %.

So of course hustle is objective but in the hustle statistics we are in the top half in all of them

So if the players are hustling, and Thibs took over a team with all kinds of cap space, and three seasons later they still are not winning consistently, who is to blame? Seems like either Thibs put together a lousy roster, over spent on players, or simply can't coach on an NBA level anymore. Maybe it is all three, but like it or not Thibs is solely responsible for the product on the court. He has moved well over half the roster he inherited, and signed Gorgui and WIg to huge deals. Tried to sign Shabazz to one as well. Thibs has used every asset this team had and we are still cleaning up the basement in the WC.

Am I missing something.

1. Thibs has done a poor job. And he should be fired for it.

2. I'm not sure how anybody can call themselves an NBA fan and still believe Coaching >>> Players. It's like you're intentionally ignoring nearly 70 years of NBA history to make a point about how much you hate Tom Thibodeau.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. Thibs has done a poor job. And he should be fired for it.

2. I'm not sure how anybody can call themselves an NBA fan and still believe Coaching >>> Players. It's like you're intentionally ignoring nearly 70 years of NBA history to make a point about how much you hate Tom Thibodeau.

What poster said they hate Thibs? and why do you think he should be fired if it's the players fault?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. Thibs has done a poor job. And he should be fired for it.

2. I'm not sure how anybody can call themselves an NBA fan and still believe Coaching >>> Players. It's like you're intentionally ignoring nearly 70 years of NBA history to make a point about how much you hate Tom Thibodeau.

Thibs signed the players so no matter what, it's still on Thibs. Either the players suck and thats on Thibs, or Thibs sucks at coaching. Pick one.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. Thibs has done a poor job. And he should be fired for it.

2. I'm not sure how anybody can call themselves an NBA fan and still believe Coaching >>> Players. It's like you're intentionally ignoring nearly 70 years of NBA history to make a point about how much you hate Tom Thibodeau.

It's obviously both players and coaching. As part of that 70-year history, would the Bulls have won 6 championships with Doug Collins as their head coach? I doubt it, in spite of having the best player in NBA history and probably the best all-around player tandem in Jordan and Pippen. Would the Mavs be in 7th place in the West if Kurt Rambis were their head coach rather than Carlisle? Thibodeau rather Carlisle? Would the Pistons be a .500 team if Van Gundy were still their head coach instead of Casey? My answer would be no to all those questions, but we can't know for sure. I'd still put player talent above coaching in the NBA, but the head coach still makes a substantial difference.

When it comes to the Wolves, the debate is largely academic. That's because Thibodeau isn't just the head coach; he's also the Team's PBO, and in that role he acquired or extended all the players on the current roster after inheriting what Thibs himself called "the best young roster in the NBA." If it's mainly the players, then that's on Thibodeau as PBO. If it's coaching, that's on Thibodeau as head coach. It's really pretty simple.

I've certainly seen worse head coaches and far worse PBOs than Tom Thibodeau. But I've definitely seen better ones. I'm just not inclined to settle for mediocrity and I don't know why the Wolves organization or fans should. I have to say I'm impressed with Thibodeau's decision to draft Okogie and getting the pick he used on Okogie in exchange for Rubio. I give Thibodeau credit for resisting the temptation to trade that pick. I also give Thibodeau full credit for escaping the Butler situation, which he allowed to develop and fester, and landing two excellent players in RoCo and Saric. The rest is up to Thibodeau as head coach and the rest of the players who Thibodeau signed or extended. If the Wolves make the playoffs, even if it's just the 8th seed, I expect Thibodeau to remain as both head coach and PBO at the start of next season. If the Wolves end up in the lottery, I think Thibodeau will be gone.

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. Thibs has done a poor job. And he should be fired for it.

2. I'm not sure how anybody can call themselves an NBA fan and still believe Coaching >>> Players. It's like you're intentionally ignoring nearly 70 years of NBA history to make a point about how much you hate Tom Thibodeau.

It's obviously both players and coaching. As part of that 70-year history, would the Bulls have won 6 championships with Doug Collins as their head coach? I doubt it, in spite of having the best player in NBA history and probably the best all-around player tandem in Jordan and Pippen. Would the Mavs be in 7th place in the West if Kurt Rambis were their head coach rather than Carlisle? Thibodeau rather Carlisle? Would the Pistons be a .500 team if Van Gundy were still their head coach instead of Casey? My answer would be no to all those questions, but we can't know for sure. I'd still put player talent above coaching in the NBA, but the head coach still makes a substantial difference.

When it comes to the Wolves, the debate is largely academic. That's because Thibodeau isn't just the head coach; he's also the Team's PBO, and in that role he acquired or extended all the players on the current roster after inheriting what Thibs himself called "the best young roster in the NBA." If it's mainly the players, then that's on Thibodeau as PBO. If it's coaching, that's on Thibodeau as head coach. It's really pretty simple.

I've certainly seen worse head coaches and far worse PBOs than Tom Thibodeau. But I've definitely seen better ones. I'm just not inclined to settle for mediocrity and I don't know why the Wolves organization or fans should. I have to say I'm impressed with Thibodeau's decision to draft Okogie and getting the pick he used on Okogie in exchange for Rubio. I give Thibodeau credit for resisting the temptation to trade that pick. I also give Thibodeau full credit for escaping the Butler situation, which he allowed to develop and fester, and landing two excellent players in RoCo and Saric. The rest is up to Thibodeau as head coach and the rest of the players who Thibodeau signed or extended. If the Wolves make the playoffs, even if it's just the 8th seed, I expect Thibodeau to remain as both head coach and PBO at the start of next season. If the Wolves end up in the lottery, I think Thibodeau will be gone.

"The best young roster in the NBA."

Part of that was hyperbole. All of it was projection.

And Andrew Wiggins was a HUGE part of it. We can blame Thibs for his lack of improvement. We can also blame Sam Mitchell for some. And maybe even Flip. Because the guy hasn't improved in any meaningful way. Or, we can blame Andrew Wiggins the basketball player.

I'm not saying coaching is irrelevant. Or that it's not important. But coaches bounce around a bit for a reason. Somebody brought up Mike D'Antoni earlier. He's a prime example. A top coach in Phoenix. Regarded as a shitty coach in NY and LAL. And then he shows up in Houston and starts beating everybody again. Did he change? Of course not. So what changed? Players.

Coaches make tweaks. They put their players in position to win. They earn trust. And all that stuff. A great coach can turn a 45 win team into a 55 win team under the right circumstances. That sort of thing.

A great player can turn a 20-win team into a 60-win team and champion.

Tyronn Lue is an NBA championship coach.
KC Jones won multiple championships.

Rashad McCants has not won an NBA title.
Neither has Will Avery.

Abe - I think we might be in violent agreement, although I don't think one great player can turn a 20 win team into a 60-win team. Maybe 30 wins to 60 wins. :) As I said, I agree talent make a bigger difference than the head coach. But as you noted, a head coach can have a big impact on a team's success or lack thereof. Part of the equation is how well a particular head coach fits with the players he has and, of course, how adaptable the coach is to that talent.

In any event, Thibodeau is fully responsible for both the talent and how that talent is coached because he holds both the PBO and head coach positions. That why there's no defending Thibodeau except to say the obvious - it could be worse. But the response as a fan that it SHOULD be better.

Hyperbole or not, there is no doubt that, after watching hours and hours of Wolves games on film, Thibodeau loved the talent on the Wolves and lobbied really hard to get the coaching job here. And after coaching seeing the talent up close, he replaced those he didn't want, extended those he liked and brought in a number of his own. The end result last season was barely making the playoffs with an end-of-season win at home over Denver. So far this season, we're just under .500. Lottery teams from last season - Denver, Dallas, Memphis, the Clippers, Lakers and even the Kings -- have passed us by. They're doing something right, whether it's player personnel decisions, head coaching or some combination. Considering where some of those teams started compared to the Wolves, I'd say that's a pretty serious indictment of Tom Thibodeau in one of his two roles if not both.

Don't get me wrong. I'll take Tom Thibodeau any day of the week over David Kahn or Kurt Rambis. Call me crazy, but I've set my bar as a fan a bit higher than that. :)

lipoli390 wrote:Abe - I think we might be in violent agreement, although I don't think one great player can turn a 20 win team into a 60-win team. Maybe 30 wins to 60 wins. :) As I said, I agree talent make a bigger difference than the head coach. But as you noted, a head coach can have a big impact on a team's success or lack thereof. Part of the equation is how well a particular head coach fits with the players he has and, of course, how adaptable the coach is to that talent.

In any event, Thibodeau is fully responsible for both the talent and how that talent is coached because he holds both the PBO and head coach positions. That why there's no defending Thibodeau except to say the obvious - it could be worse. But the response as a fan that it SHOULD be better.

Hyperbole or not, there is no doubt that, after watching hours and hours of Wolves games on film, Thibodeau loved the talent on the Wolves and lobbied really hard to get the coaching job here. And after coaching seeing the talent up close, he replaced those he didn't want, extended those he liked and brought in a number of his own. The end result last season was barely making the playoffs with an end-of-season win at home over Denver. So far this season, we're just under .500. Lottery teams from last season - Denver, Dallas, Memphis, the Clippers, Lakers and even the Kings -- have passed us by. They're doing something right, whether it's player personnel decisions, head coaching or some combination. Considering where some of those teams started compared to the Wolves, I'd say that's a pretty serious indictment of Tom Thibodeau in one of his two roles if not both.

Don't get me wrong. I'll take Tom Thibodeau any day of the week over David Kahn or Kurt Rambis. Call me crazy, but I've set my bar as a fan a bit higher than that. :)

Among the many reasons for firing Thibs... the decision to give Andrew Wiggins $150M will be a big reason for it. Wiggins is a dog. And he's going to cost another coach his job. Heck, I just read an article about how Dave Joerger betting on Jeff Green backfired for him.

There are more than a few parallels between those two players.