Minnesota Sports Forum

So it's safe to say my prediction of 50 wins was a bit, ummm, opTIMistic. If I make the same prediction annually I'll eventually be right... or dead.

Have people not been watching Wiggins play lately? He has certainly gone after a few players on those transition plays that have been brought up and he has at the very least fouled guys a couple times. I've seen more effort and "do shit" stuff from Wiggins since the all star break. Is it enough? No but it's improved by what I have seen by the eye test. I also see the guy chatting up officials like he...you know actually is a human and talks to people and likes it. I know these guys have been working towards this for years and have good support systems and all that but still they are pretty tough and some of what makes a great basketball player doesn't come easily. I think there is plenty there for Wiggins to be more than just a pretty good player. Will he get there? I don't know but I'm enjoying watching him on his journey.

BloopOracle wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:How many 21 years in the NBA have scored 20+ a game and were at least an average defender? I bet if he Wiggins stayed on with the Cavs he would be a lights out defender with how much less energy he would expend on that team

"at least average"...

ahem.

I guess we'll never stop parsing through what constitutes talent or promise and downplay other elements to continue the Promise of Hope.

Seriously how many are there? I don't think I am downplaying anything Abe

I think your definition of "at least an average defender" might be argued by many around the league without a vested interest in hoping Wiggins improves as a player.

Can you take their place and name some? I just can't see that many 21 year old players you could lock into that description, ESPECIALLY if we narrow down to wing players

I think we're missing each other here.

I'm not claiming there are several better 21 year olds. I'm claiming Wiggins isn't as good of a defender as you're claiming him to be.

khans2k5 wrote:

From earlier in the season (December 21st). ESPN compared the Wolves future to the Bucks:

"As for Towns, while he hasn't been as bad as Wiggins, he's not far behind. Currently ranked 402nd overall in defensive RPM (minus-1.91), Towns is also dead last among all centers. One season after ranking second among rookies in blocks per game behind only Kristaps Porzingis, Towns has regressed as his blocks per game have dropped from 1.7 to 1.4 despite playing three more minutes.
Only three teams have allowed a better shooting percentage on shots inside the restricted area than Minnesota's 63.2, a number that jumps to 64.4 with Towns in the game. He also has seen both his steal rate and defensive rebound rate fall from his rookie season, not good signs for a potentially high-impact defensive player in his second season."

He's improved over the course of the season, but still far too often we see shots go uncontested at the rim for some unknown reason. We're 7th worst in percentage 6ft from the rim and under and we basically play 2 guys 80% of the minutes.

OK. Going by DRPM - I agree Towns doesn't show up well on the defensive side of things. So you are not wrong in saying he's a poor defender by that standard. But I guess where I'm going with it is using ALL the data from RPM, he rates as the 4th best center overall in "Wins" which is a derivative of offense and defensive RPM. That's why I can give Towns a pass. He's not a good defender right now. But that stat says we are much better with him even factoring in his below average defense. Now let's look at how all our starting five ranks according to "Wins":

Center - KAT is 4th in NBA
PF - Dieng is 6th
SF - Wiggins is 27th
SG - Rush is 68th
PG - Rubio is 12th

Again, I don't disagree that KAT is a not a good defender right now or that Rubio is not a good scorer. It's just that (based on RPM/Wins) when you add it all up, those guys rate higher over all than our guys at other positions. We can debate whether or not this metric is a good one or not. But it's what that guy you are quoting was using except he was only focusing on the defense to make his point. But overall, KAT rates very well. And given that it's only his second season, I think there is reason to believe he can still improve a lot on both sides so that's pretty exciting.

monsterpile wrote:Have people not been watching Wiggins play lately? He has certainly gone after a few players on those transition plays that have been brought up and he has at the very least fouled guys a couple times. I've seen more effort and "do shit" stuff from Wiggins since the all star break. Is it enough? No but it's improved by what I have seen by the eye test. I also see the guy chatting up officials like he...you know actually is a human and talks to people and likes it. I know these guys have been working towards this for years and have good support systems and all that but still they are pretty tough and some of what makes a great basketball player doesn't come easily. I think there is plenty there for Wiggins to be more than just a pretty good player. Will he get there? I don't know but I'm enjoying watching him on his journey.

Wiggins pre-ASB vs. post-ASB:
PPG - 23.2 vs. 22.7
RPG - 4.2 vs. 3.5
APG - 2.5 vs. 1.9
BPG - .4 vs. .3
SPG - .9 vs. 1.4
TS% - 54.4% vs. 49.4%

This is the problem with the "eye test". Your eyes often tell you what you want to see.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Have people not been watching Wiggins play lately? He has certainly gone after a few players on those transition plays that have been brought up and he has at the very least fouled guys a couple times. I've seen more effort and "do shit" stuff from Wiggins since the all star break. Is it enough? No but it's improved by what I have seen by the eye test. I also see the guy chatting up officials like he...you know actually is a human and talks to people and likes it. I know these guys have been working towards this for years and have good support systems and all that but still they are pretty tough and some of what makes a great basketball player doesn't come easily. I think there is plenty there for Wiggins to be more than just a pretty good player. Will he get there? I don't know but I'm enjoying watching him on his journey.

Wiggins pre-ASB vs. post-ASB:
PPG - 23.2 vs. 22.7
RPG - 4.2 vs. 3.5
APG - 2.5 vs. 1.9
BPG - .4 vs. .3
SPG - .9 vs. 1.4
TS% - 54.4% vs. 49.4%

This is the problem with the "eye test". Your eyes often tell you what you want to see.

I know very well what the stats are. Where is the stat for contests on fast breaks?

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Have people not been watching Wiggins play lately? He has certainly gone after a few players on those transition plays that have been brought up and he has at the very least fouled guys a couple times. I've seen more effort and "do shit" stuff from Wiggins since the all star break. Is it enough? No but it's improved by what I have seen by the eye test. I also see the guy chatting up officials like he...you know actually is a human and talks to people and likes it. I know these guys have been working towards this for years and have good support systems and all that but still they are pretty tough and some of what makes a great basketball player doesn't come easily. I think there is plenty there for Wiggins to be more than just a pretty good player. Will he get there? I don't know but I'm enjoying watching him on his journey.

Wiggins pre-ASB vs. post-ASB:
PPG - 23.2 vs. 22.7
RPG - 4.2 vs. 3.5
APG - 2.5 vs. 1.9
BPG - .4 vs. .3
SPG - .9 vs. 1.4
TS% - 54.4% vs. 49.4%

This is the problem with the "eye test". Your eyes often tell you what you want to see.

I know very well what the stats are. Where is the stat for contests on fast breaks?

There isn't a stat for that, although you would think given his athleticism he could actually get some more blocks on those plays. Kris Dunn and Brandon Rush average more blocks per game than Wiggins and neither are as long and athletic or play nearly the same amount of minutes. That's incredible to me.

The same goes for charges. I believe Wiggins has a total of one or two charges.....in his entire career!

I'm not suggesting Wiggins never works hard or doesn't occasionally make an effort play. We have seen him leap over the scrum for contested rebounds on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, these sorts of things just don't happen enough. It is what it is. We need a wing next to him that will expend his energy on this stuff and Wiggins can focus on scoring.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Have people not been watching Wiggins play lately? He has certainly gone after a few players on those transition plays that have been brought up and he has at the very least fouled guys a couple times. I've seen more effort and "do shit" stuff from Wiggins since the all star break. Is it enough? No but it's improved by what I have seen by the eye test. I also see the guy chatting up officials like he...you know actually is a human and talks to people and likes it. I know these guys have been working towards this for years and have good support systems and all that but still they are pretty tough and some of what makes a great basketball player doesn't come easily. I think there is plenty there for Wiggins to be more than just a pretty good player. Will he get there? I don't know but I'm enjoying watching him on his journey.

Wiggins pre-ASB vs. post-ASB:
PPG - 23.2 vs. 22.7
RPG - 4.2 vs. 3.5
APG - 2.5 vs. 1.9
BPG - .4 vs. .3
SPG - .9 vs. 1.4
TS% - 54.4% vs. 49.4%

This is the problem with the "eye test". Your eyes often tell you what you want to see.

I know very well what the stats are. Where is the stat for contests on fast breaks?

There isn't a stat for that, although you would think given his athleticism he could actually get some more blocks on those plays. Kris Dunn and Brandon Rush average more blocks per game than Wiggins and neither are as long and athletic or play nearly the same amount of minutes. That's incredible to me.

The same goes for charges. I believe Wiggins has a total of one or two charges.....in his entire career!

I'm not suggesting Wiggins never works hard or doesn't occasionally make an effort play. We have seen him leap over the scrum for contested rebounds on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, these sorts of things just don't happen enough. It is what it is. We need a wing next to him that will expend his energy on this stuff and Wiggins can focus on scoring.

I'm not letting Wiggins off that easy. I know that's not your intent but I think you tend to want certain guys to focus on just doing what they do well and when they are young...they just can't settle for that especially a guy like Wiggins who has the talent.