Minnesota Sports Forum

Mikkeman wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:I actually think their best lineup is Westbrook/PG/Melo/Patterson/Adams over WB/PG/Roberson/Melo/Adams. Patterson stretches the floor while Roberson is worse than Tony Allen offensively. It keeps Melo from getting worn down by 4's. Outside of GS I think going small with Roberson doesn't make a ton of sense for them. They're gonna need the floor stretched out as much as possible to make that offense work well.

I agree with this. Patterson's ability to stretch the floor might be more important than Roberson's ability to defend since with PG, they have already one elite wing defender in lineup. Melo/PG/Roberson is really nice wing rotation that will make sure that Melo can always take offensively worse wing on defensive end. In the end of games, they can swap between Patterson and Roberson depending on whether they are playing offensive or defensive possession.

And they have Jeremi Grant too. They can throw out all kinds of versatile lineups.

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm fine with Melo to Wiggins comps for early career Wiggins. The problem with Melo is that he stopped improving his game. If he would have stayed at it he would have been a top level player. Melo led some solid teams to the playoffs as a young player. If Wiggins plateaus I'll be worried but there are no signs of it yet. Wiggins is light years more athletic than Melo though.

'Melo was a vastly superior player to Wiggins by their respective third years. Wiggins has to improve a ton just to get to 3rd and 4th year 'Melo. But you are correct, after that, 'Melo didn't evolve much.

Improve a ton? That's a little bit of hyperbole Q. Here are some Melo stats from his 3rd year:

3 Pt percentage - 24.3%
RPG - 4.9
Assists - 2.7
Steals - 1.1
Blocks .5

And we all know Melo has never been a good defender either. Was he better at the same time? Probably. Vastly superior? Definitely not.

It seems that most of the advanced stats agree with Q.

Wiggins 3rd year: PER 16.5, win shares 4.2, WS/48min 0.66, BPM -2.7, VORP -0.6, TS% 53.4
Melo 3rd year: PER 22.0, win shares 9.4, WS/48min 1.53, BPM 1.5, VORP 2.6 TS% 56.3

Even tough Melo's 3rd year was by far his worst year in all do shit stats, he had still higher rebounding, assists, steals and blocks % than Wiggins. He also lead Denver team with just Andre Miller, Kenyan Martin and Marcus Camby to 44 wins even tough both Camby and Martin missed around 25 games that year.

If Wiggins ever improves his efficiency as scorer, rebounding and passing so much that he is same level than Carmelo was during his best years, I will be really happy.

Exactly. It's not that Carmelo was way better than Wiggins in any one area. It's that he was better than Wiggins in nearly every facet of the game. Add it all up and I consider him a vastly superior player at that point in his career.

All right this is silly. I granted you that Melo was the better player, but as I demonstrated, saying that he was vastly superior is a bit of a stretch. Let's see what happens to Wiggins advanced stats in a year when his team should be much better. Knowing what Melo didn't become, I'd still take Andrew at this point in his career.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm fine with Melo to Wiggins comps for early career Wiggins. The problem with Melo is that he stopped improving his game. If he would have stayed at it he would have been a top level player. Melo led some solid teams to the playoffs as a young player. If Wiggins plateaus I'll be worried but there are no signs of it yet. Wiggins is light years more athletic than Melo though.

'Melo was a vastly superior player to Wiggins by their respective third years. Wiggins has to improve a ton just to get to 3rd and 4th year 'Melo. But you are correct, after that, 'Melo didn't evolve much.

Improve a ton? That's a little bit of hyperbole Q. Here are some Melo stats from his 3rd year:

3 Pt percentage - 24.3%
RPG - 4.9
Assists - 2.7
Steals - 1.1
Blocks .5

And we all know Melo has never been a good defender either. Was he better at the same time? Probably. Vastly superior? Definitely not.

It seems that most of the advanced stats agree with Q.

Wiggins 3rd year: PER 16.5, win shares 4.2, WS/48min 0.66, BPM -2.7, VORP -0.6, TS% 53.4
Melo 3rd year: PER 22.0, win shares 9.4, WS/48min 1.53, BPM 1.5, VORP 2.6 TS% 56.3

Even tough Melo's 3rd year was by far his worst year in all do shit stats, he had still higher rebounding, assists, steals and blocks % than Wiggins. He also lead Denver team with just Andre Miller, Kenyan Martin and Marcus Camby to 44 wins even tough both Camby and Martin missed around 25 games that year.

If Wiggins ever improves his efficiency as scorer, rebounding and passing so much that he is same level than Carmelo was during his best years, I will be really happy.

Exactly. It's not that Carmelo was way better than Wiggins in any one area. It's that he was better than Wiggins in nearly every facet of the game. Add it all up and I consider him a vastly superior player at that point in his career.

All right this is silly. I granted you that Melo was the better player, but as I demonstrated, saying that he was vastly superior is a bit of a stretch. Let's see what happens to Wiggins advanced stats in a year when his team should be much better. Knowing what Melo didn't become, I'd still take Andrew at this point in his career.

The best player Wiggins has played with in his career for more than 50 games is probably Towns (some could argue it's Rubio) and while Towns is supremely talented his actual effect on winning basketball games can be questioned. Meanwhile that 3rd season Melo played with Miller, Camby and Martin who were high level players (Martin and Camby were high level defenders and had each played in an NBA finals) and all where in their prime playing for a HOF coach. That's worth mentioning when Wiggins was mostly playing with either old somewhat broken down guys or young talented guys that hadn't figured it out yet.

monsterpile wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm fine with Melo to Wiggins comps for early career Wiggins. The problem with Melo is that he stopped improving his game. If he would have stayed at it he would have been a top level player. Melo led some solid teams to the playoffs as a young player. If Wiggins plateaus I'll be worried but there are no signs of it yet. Wiggins is light years more athletic than Melo though.

'Melo was a vastly superior player to Wiggins by their respective third years. Wiggins has to improve a ton just to get to 3rd and 4th year 'Melo. But you are correct, after that, 'Melo didn't evolve much.

Improve a ton? That's a little bit of hyperbole Q. Here are some Melo stats from his 3rd year:

3 Pt percentage - 24.3%
RPG - 4.9
Assists - 2.7
Steals - 1.1
Blocks .5

And we all know Melo has never been a good defender either. Was he better at the same time? Probably. Vastly superior? Definitely not.

It seems that most of the advanced stats agree with Q.

Wiggins 3rd year: PER 16.5, win shares 4.2, WS/48min 0.66, BPM -2.7, VORP -0.6, TS% 53.4
Melo 3rd year: PER 22.0, win shares 9.4, WS/48min 1.53, BPM 1.5, VORP 2.6 TS% 56.3

Even tough Melo's 3rd year was by far his worst year in all do shit stats, he had still higher rebounding, assists, steals and blocks % than Wiggins. He also lead Denver team with just Andre Miller, Kenyan Martin and Marcus Camby to 44 wins even tough both Camby and Martin missed around 25 games that year.

If Wiggins ever improves his efficiency as scorer, rebounding and passing so much that he is same level than Carmelo was during his best years, I will be really happy.

Exactly. It's not that Carmelo was way better than Wiggins in any one area. It's that he was better than Wiggins in nearly every facet of the game. Add it all up and I consider him a vastly superior player at that point in his career.

All right this is silly. I granted you that Melo was the better player, but as I demonstrated, saying that he was vastly superior is a bit of a stretch. Let's see what happens to Wiggins advanced stats in a year when his team should be much better. Knowing what Melo didn't become, I'd still take Andrew at this point in his career.

The best player Wiggins has played with in his career for more than 50 games is probably Towns (some could argue it's Rubio) and while Towns is supremely talented his actual effect on winning basketball games can be questioned. Meanwhile that 3rd season Melo played with Miller, Camby and Martin who were high level players (Martin and Camby were high level defenders and had each played in an NBA finals) and all where in their prime playing for a HOF coach. That's worth mentioning when Wiggins was mostly playing with either old somewhat broken down guys or young talented guys that hadn't figured it out yet.

I always find this to be kind of a lame excuse for a high-potential/#1 pick type player's lack of production. It certainly didn't prevent the likes of Anthony Davis, KAT, or Kyrie Irving from being very productive, despite not having the best supporting cast when they were starting their careers.

Wiggins right now is very good at getting shots off and putting pressure on a defense. Unfortunately, he isn't very efficient at the one thing he does well (getting shots off) and there isn't much of anything else he does well. But yeah, there is still time for him to get better. His 3-point shot showed a lot of promise last year.

The ability to score the ball is such a huge part of NBA basketball. Especially when the other team has a large focus on stopping you. in that way, Wig has had a major impact in our ability to stay in games. Thankfully we haven't had to see it yet, but I'm curious what we would have looked like if we had to play without him for a long stretch like 15 games. Personally I don't think it would have looked very good.

For those areas of the game where he hasn't done well, I think this year is huge for him. If you don't see requisite improvement in his advanced stats this year, I'll be ready to join in on sounding the warning bells. But I'm still willing to bet he will justify the max contract he is getting. If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I'm fine with Melo to Wiggins comps for early career Wiggins. The problem with Melo is that he stopped improving his game. If he would have stayed at it he would have been a top level player. Melo led some solid teams to the playoffs as a young player. If Wiggins plateaus I'll be worried but there are no signs of it yet. Wiggins is light years more athletic than Melo though.

'Melo was a vastly superior player to Wiggins by their respective third years. Wiggins has to improve a ton just to get to 3rd and 4th year 'Melo. But you are correct, after that, 'Melo didn't evolve much.

Improve a ton? That's a little bit of hyperbole Q. Here are some Melo stats from his 3rd year:

3 Pt percentage - 24.3%
RPG - 4.9
Assists - 2.7
Steals - 1.1
Blocks .5

And we all know Melo has never been a good defender either. Was he better at the same time? Probably. Vastly superior? Definitely not.

It seems that most of the advanced stats agree with Q.

Wiggins 3rd year: PER 16.5, win shares 4.2, WS/48min 0.66, BPM -2.7, VORP -0.6, TS% 53.4
Melo 3rd year: PER 22.0, win shares 9.4, WS/48min 1.53, BPM 1.5, VORP 2.6 TS% 56.3

Even tough Melo's 3rd year was by far his worst year in all do shit stats, he had still higher rebounding, assists, steals and blocks % than Wiggins. He also lead Denver team with just Andre Miller, Kenyan Martin and Marcus Camby to 44 wins even tough both Camby and Martin missed around 25 games that year.

If Wiggins ever improves his efficiency as scorer, rebounding and passing so much that he is same level than Carmelo was during his best years, I will be really happy.

Exactly. It's not that Carmelo was way better than Wiggins in any one area. It's that he was better than Wiggins in nearly every facet of the game. Add it all up and I consider him a vastly superior player at that point in his career.

All right this is silly. I granted you that Melo was the better player, but as I demonstrated, saying that he was vastly superior is a bit of a stretch. Let's see what happens to Wiggins advanced stats in a year when his team should be much better. Knowing what Melo didn't become, I'd still take Andrew at this point in his career.

The best player Wiggins has played with in his career for more than 50 games is probably Towns (some could argue it's Rubio) and while Towns is supremely talented his actual effect on winning basketball games can be questioned. Meanwhile that 3rd season Melo played with Miller, Camby and Martin who were high level players (Martin and Camby were high level defenders and had each played in an NBA finals) and all where in their prime playing for a HOF coach. That's worth mentioning when Wiggins was mostly playing with either old somewhat broken down guys or young talented guys that hadn't figured it out yet.

I always find this to be kind of a lame excuse for a high-potential/#1 pick type player's lack of production. It certainly didn't prevent the likes of Anthony Davis, KAT, or Kyrie Irving from being very productive, despite not having the best supporting cast when they were starting their careers.

Wiggins right now is very good at getting shots off and putting pressure on a defense. Unfortunately, he isn't very efficient at the one thing he does well (getting shots off) and there isn't much of anything else he does well. But yeah, there is still time for him to get better. His 3-point shot showed a lot of promise last year.

Q it was stated that Melo led a team to 44 wins with his supporting cast. My point was Wiggins supporting cast doesn't compare when it comes to wins. That's worth considering that's all I was saying.

The thing that blows my mind about this deal is Clay Bennett. He refused to pay the Lux for Harden when oil was $105/barrell, but now gladly pays it for Melo when oil is $55/barrell? And rich people are smarter than me how again?

And remember the good old days when Sam Presti found stars instead of paying for someone else's stars? Wouldn't OKC be better off with KD/JH/RW instead of CA/PG/RW? I think so.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:The thing that blows my mind about this deal is Clay Bennett. He refused to pay the Lux for Harden when oil was $105/barrell, but now gladly pays it for Melo when oil is $55/barrell? And rich people are smarter than me how again?

And remember the good old days when Sam Presti found stars instead of paying for someone else's stars? Wouldn't OKC be better off with KD/JH/RW instead of CA/PG/RW? I think so.

This is funny. Wealthy people often get the cheapest when things are good. But he was probably sick of publicly getting panned for being cheap for the last 5 years. No one seems to be above it.

thedoper wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:The thing that blows my mind about this deal is Clay Bennett. He refused to pay the Lux for Harden when oil was $105/barrell, but now gladly pays it for Melo when oil is $55/barrell? And rich people are smallest than me how again?

And remember the good old days when Sam Presti found stars instead of paying for someone else's stars? Wouldn't OKC be better off with KD/JH/RW instead of CA/PG/RW? I think so.

This is funny. Wealthy people often get the cheapest when things are good. But he was probably sick of publicly getting panned for being cheap for the last 5 years. No one seems to be above it.

He has to do it now, his franchise is in a lot of trouble if they can't retain Westbrook. They have to go all in, if they don't they will have no star, one of the worst teams in basketball and the smallest market.

When they traded Harden they had a fall back in Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka including 2 high picks (lamb and Adams). So they could keep "cheap" and still content.

This year could be the biggest year in OKC history because if they can't keep it together after this year, basketball in OKC could be over

kekgeek1 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:The thing that blows my mind about this deal is Clay Bennett. He refused to pay the Lux for Harden when oil was $105/barrell, but now gladly pays it for Melo when oil is $55/barrell? And rich people are smallest than me how again?

And remember the good old days when Sam Presti found stars instead of paying for someone else's stars? Wouldn't OKC be better off with KD/JH/RW instead of CA/PG/RW? I think so.

This is funny. Wealthy people often get the cheapest when things are good. But he was probably sick of publicly getting panned for being cheap for the last 5 years. No one seems to be above it.

He has to do it now, his franchise is in a lot of trouble if they can't retain Westbrook. They have to go all in, if they don't they will have no star, one of the worst teams in basketball and the smallest market.

When they traded Harden they had a fall back in Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka including 2 high picks (lamb and Adams). So they could keep "cheap" and still content.

This year could be the biggest year in OKC history because if they can't keep it together after this year, basketball in OKC could be over

They never should have left Seattle. I liked those Thunder teams but don't really give a shit if this blows up in their owner's face.