Minnesota Sports Forum

sjm34 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.

Nice part is that you don't have to decide.

I think the most important consideration is that Thibs is inflexible, and maybe just not smart enough for today's NBA. Any GM in the wolves org should be cognizant of the fact this team needs to build through the draft. We just can't get players here at a competitive price in FA. Thibs has blown our salary cap to the point our team will likely get worse rather than better over the next couple of seasons.

To make matters worse, he seems allergic to change of any of his systems. Not having an offensive system was OK when you had RIcky to run things, but he traded him away for a better shooter who scores 2 more points per game, and made us weaker defensively as well.

You mention that this team needs to build through the draft and Thibs/Layden seem to have considered that as well. They got a draft pick for Rubio and didn't give up that pick for a chance to get a solid rotation player. People are really down on Patton and there is some evidence to support that but it's not like he is a lost cause at 20 years old (turns 21 in June) who was supposed to be raw and then had a foot injury. On one hand you have Cam that really thinks Patton has a chance to be good. On the other Q is really down on him. I'm not saying I only respect these 2 poster's takes but I think they are people the last few years have had takes on various players I resonated with (Cam seems to have an eye for talent and Q cuts through the BS of "talent" to what can the guy actually do) and they are on opposite sides. What if Patton had never gotten hurt? What if he is healthy next season and shows an intruiging skillset? You are absolutely right this team needs to build from the draft and build from finding some lower cost young talent also. Thins and Layden have done that the last 2 years but with mixed results. This offseason will be interesting. People tend to forget the backup PG on this team is 21 years old.

It kind of defeats the purpose of building through the draft when you swap out PG's (of similar talent) and add 5 mil to the payroll. THibs has shown no ability to judge talent, even with several years of data to evaluate. G and Bazz are both below average players and he offered both 4 year deals in double digits, and did both a year early. Thank god Bazz turned his down, or this team would be even further up the creek. Whether Patton shows the skillset we want, he was a still a pick that really doesn't fit our needs.

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Here's another reason this season is a failure. We spent considerable time in 3rd or 4th place. To end up 8th or even out of the playoffs is a collapse if nothing else. We blew too many winnable games and should not be in this position. And before you say, "but Jimmy got hurt", remember he gets hurt every year. That's part of the deal with him.

Every team has ups and downs in their narrative for a season. Jumping from there were challenging aspects to this season to it was a failure is too big of a jump. It's just too black and white, 5 more wins and it was a success? I think Thibs just rubs a lot of people (fans included) the wrong way. I keep going back to the 16 win improvement, and can't find a way to translate that into failure. Was it pretty? Hell no. Could we have won more? Probably, but that makes me more excited than dissappinted.

To answer your question, Yes, 5 more wins and it was a major success.

I guess I'm not so black and white. Failure and success seem too close together from that model for my taste.

khans2k5 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:
To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.

Nice part is that you don't have to decide.

I think the most important consideration is that Thibs is inflexible, and maybe just not smart enough for today's NBA. Any GM in the wolves org should be cognizant of the fact this team needs to build through the draft. We just can't get players here at a competitive price in FA. Thibs has blown our salary cap to the point our team will likely get worse rather than better over the next couple of seasons.

To make matters worse, he seems allergic to change of any of his systems. Not having an offensive system was OK when you had RIcky to run things, but he traded him away for a better shooter who scores 2 more points per game, and made us weaker defensively as well.

You mention that this team needs to build through the draft and Thibs/Layden seem to have considered that as well. They got a draft pick for Rubio and didn't give up that pick for a chance to get a solid rotation player. People are really down on Patton and there is some evidence to support that but it's not like he is a lost cause at 20 years old (turns 21 in June) who was supposed to be raw and then had a foot injury. On one hand you have Cam that really thinks Patton has a chance to be good. On the other Q is really down on him. I'm not saying I only respect these 2 poster's takes but I think they are people the last few years have had takes on various players I resonated with (Cam seems to have an eye for talent and Q cuts through the BS of "talent" to what can the guy actually do) and they are on opposite sides. What if Patton had never gotten hurt? What if he is healthy next season and shows an intruiging skillset? You are absolutely right this team needs to build from the draft and build from finding some lower cost young talent also. Thins and Layden have done that the last 2 years but with mixed results. This offseason will be interesting. People tend to forget the backup PG on this team is 21 years old.

It kind of defeats the purpose of building through the draft when you swap out PG's (of similar talent) and add 5 mil to the payroll. THibs has shown no ability to judge talent, even with several years of data to evaluate. G and Bazz are both below average players and he offered both 4 year deals in double digits, and did both a year early. Thank god Bazz turned his down, or this team would be even further up the creek. Whether Patton shows the skillset we want, he was a still a pick that really doesn't fit our needs.

In what world does trading Ricky for a first round pick defeat the purpose of building through the draft? Getting a draft pick for a piece that doesn't fit what you are trying to do is exactly how you build through the draft. I would also argue given the garbage depth we have in the front court that Patton does fit a need. A cheap late first round pick to try to offset G's albatross is what you need to do to recover from a bad deal like that. I would say Thibs and Layden are firmly trying to build support pieces using draft assets. Whether they pan out or not is a different argument, but getting a wing in this draft would mean Tyus, that wing and Patton would all hopefully be main bench pieces moving forward around Jimmy, Towns and Wiggins. That's 6 drafted players out of your core 8-9 that Thibs plays.

khans2k5 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

It kind of defeats the purpose of building through the draft when you swap out PG's (of similar talent) and add 5 mil to the payroll. THibs has shown no ability to judge talent, even with several years of data to evaluate. G and Bazz are both below average players and he offered both 4 year deals in double digits, and did both a year early. Thank god Bazz turned his down, or this team would be even further up the creek. Whether Patton shows the skillset we want, he was a still a pick that really doesn't fit our needs.

In what world does trading Ricky for a first round pick defeat the purpose of building through the draft? Getting a draft pick for a piece that doesn't fit what you are trying to do is exactly how you build through the draft. I would also argue given the garbage depth we have in the front court that Patton does fit a need. A cheap late first round pick to try to offset G's albatross is what you need to do to recover from a bad deal like that. I would say Thibs and Layden are firmly trying to build support pieces using draft assets. Whether they pan out or not is a different argument, but getting a wing in this draft would mean Tyus, that wing and Patton would all hopefully be main bench pieces moving forward around Jimmy, Towns and Wiggins. That's 6 drafted players out of your core 8-9 that Thibs plays.

sjm34 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

It kind of defeats the purpose of building through the draft when you swap out PG's (of similar talent) and add 5 mil to the payroll. THibs has shown no ability to judge talent, even with several years of data to evaluate. G and Bazz are both below average players and he offered both 4 year deals in double digits, and did both a year early. Thank god Bazz turned his down, or this team would be even further up the creek. Whether Patton shows the skillset we want, he was a still a pick that really doesn't fit our needs.

In what world does trading Ricky for a first round pick defeat the purpose of building through the draft? Getting a draft pick for a piece that doesn't fit what you are trying to do is exactly how you build through the draft. I would also argue given the garbage depth we have in the front court that Patton does fit a need. A cheap late first round pick to try to offset G's albatross is what you need to do to recover from a bad deal like that. I would say Thibs and Layden are firmly trying to build support pieces using draft assets. Whether they pan out or not is a different argument, but getting a wing in this draft would mean Tyus, that wing and Patton would all hopefully be main bench pieces moving forward around Jimmy, Towns and Wiggins. That's 6 drafted players out of your core 8-9 that Thibs plays.

Doling out the extra 5 mil took care of that. You are now paying out 7 mil for that mid round draft pick. Patton is too soft of a player, and we needed a defensive minded player next to Towns with Gibson set to expire in one more season.

How are you building through the draft if you are using your first round picks to unload the "albatross" contract that you signed the following season? We have no idea of who we might be getting in this draft, or how good he might be. We might be drafting in the low to mid twenties. Patton has set foot on the court this last season, so I am not penciling him in as main bench guy yet.

Our offense ran just fine under Ricky, so I don't understand dumping him for a more expensive, and worse defending guard. Ricky liked it here which also something to consider.

Monster, just because other teams made bad deals as well, doesn't excuse Thibs from doing it. The other fact you are overlooking is that Thibs offered those deals a year earlier than necessary.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:The Wolves will be favored against Denver. The season is a failure regardless of what happens in that game. Butler did what history says he would do - play great but miss an important chunk of the season. Yes, I'm going to say it, Wiggins had a terrible year given his talent. And Towns anchored one of the worst defenses in the league - again. At one time we had all the assets to build a true contender. Now they're used up and we are stuck in no mans land in the NBA. Good enough to miss out on high draft picks, and bad enough to never contend. Failure.

longstrangetrip wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I think the defensive atrociousness has to fall on Thibs at some point. We have players who can or should be able to play defense. Butler and Taj have both been good to great in the past. Wiggins and Towns have the physical ability to play defense. Then you have to also realize Thibs is the one who brought the players in/extended.

We can't change the players without taking a step back. Wiggins is going to be overpaid for what he has produced this season. KAT is a baller and exceptional talent on offense, obviously you have to build around him. But his defense has been lagging behind. Butler can and has played great defense so he's not "the problem."

You can't have a bottom 5 defense with payers who should perform better without having some kind of problem.

I expected the defense to be better. I think we all did.

When Andrew Wiggins is on the without Jamal Crawford what is 68% of possessions the wolves have a defensive rating of 106.0 what would put us at 15 in the NBA in defensive rating. When Jamal Crawford is with Andrew Wiggins what is 32% of the possessions the defensive rating balloons to 123.5 pts per 100 possessions what would be the worst team in the NBA by 13 pts per 100 possessions.

When KAT is on the court without Jamal Crawford what is 72% of possession the wolves have a def rating of 106.9 what would be 16th in the NBA. But when Jamal plays with KAT 28% of possessions the Wolves defense once again balloons to 117.1 once again would be the worst team in the NBA by 7 pts per possession.

When KAT and Wiggins are together in any lineup that does not have Crawford in it we have a def rating of 106.5 what would be the 15th rated team in the NBA but when you add Crawford into lineups that include KAT and Wiggins. The Wolves defensive sky rockets once again to 121.7. Almost 12 pts worse than the worst NBA team in the League and 15 pts worse in any other lineup those to play together without Crawford.

I think we all agree that our best two defenders are Taj and Jimmy Butler. The wolves Defensive rating when those 2 are on the court minus Jamal we have a def rating of 105.0 what would be the 11th best defense in the NBA. Now if we add crawford to those two the wolves defense is 112.9 once again the worst team in the NBA.

I know it is hard to blame one guy on the defensive struggles. But it doesn't matter the lineup we are a middle of the road defense when Crawford is not on the court but we are the worst team in the NBA in any lineup Crawford is on the court.

Now Towns and Wiggins have a ways to go defensively and they are not perfect but they are an average NBA defense in any other lineup that dosen't involve Crawford. Now if you want to blame Thibs for not finding another wing fine. But a huge part of the terrible defense goes on the shoulders of one player and that is Crawford

To paraphrase the late Denny Green, Jamal Crawford was what we thought he was. 17 seasons in the NBA were a large enough sample size to conclude that he was a terrible defender. I can't decide if I want to blame the POBO for signing him when better defensive options were available, or the coach for playing him almost 21 MPG.