Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Hicks, I think the problem some folks might have is that we spent the kind of money and signed the kind of contracts that doesn't make it easy to fill those holes. Thibs went all in on "winning now", but put some real constraints on future moves while at the same time constructing a roster that doesn't always seem to fit well together.

Our future moves would have been just as constrained if Thibs didn't sign anyone or if he made cheaper deals because once KATs extension kicks in that's it. Last season was the offseason to acquire enough high value assets to be flexible for deals. Not spending to near the cap last year would have been silly because the Wiggins and KAT extensions would have erased that space anyway. And we would have been in an real pickle with Lavine too if he would have played as colossally bad as he did in Chicago.

Mmmm, let me put this another way. Given the amount of churn and $ spent, fans may be didn't expect there to be this many holes. It's just a weird fitting roster he has put together and we have the same two holes we've had for the past 10 years: 3-point shooting and defense. Perhaps the coach deserves some of the blame.....

Sure. I get it. And I think Thibs deserves blame. BUT...

The long-term prospects of this team -- and how we fill holes -- rests on KAT and Wiggins.

Especially Wiggins. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a good defender. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be able to be a dominant scorer. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to develop a three point shot. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a game-changing, franchise-changing player.

There's time for that. But right now... he's not remotely close to being THAT guy. Thus, the team is littered with potential holes. If he doesn't improve significantly... and many of those same holes remain... we have to look at the holes created specifically because we put our 150M eggs in the wrong basket. Granted, that's still on Thibs to some degree... but it's also on Taylor and the entire organization.

And mostly... on Andrew Wiggins.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Hicks, I think the problem some folks might have is that we spent the kind of money and signed the kind of contracts that doesn't make it easy to fill those holes. Thibs went all in on "winning now", but put some real constraints on future moves while at the same time constructing a roster that doesn't always seem to fit well together.

Our future moves would have been just as constrained if Thibs didn't sign anyone or if he made cheaper deals because once KATs extension kicks in that's it. Last season was the offseason to acquire enough high value assets to be flexible for deals. Not spending to near the cap last year would have been silly because the Wiggins and KAT extensions would have erased that space anyway. And we would have been in an real pickle with Lavine too if he would have played as colossally bad as he did in Chicago.

Mmmm, let me put this another way. Given the amount of churn and $ spent, fans may be didn't expect there to be this many holes. It's just a weird fitting roster he has put together and we have the same two holes we've had for the past 10 years: 3-point shooting and defense. Perhaps the coach deserves some of the blame.....

Sure. I get it. And I think Thibs deserves blame. BUT...

The long-term prospects of this team -- and how we fill holes -- rests on KAT and Wiggins.

Especially Wiggins. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a good defender. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be able to be a dominant scorer. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to develop a three point shot. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a game-changing, franchise-changing player.

There's time for that. But right now... he's not remotely close to being THAT guy. Thus, the team is littered with potential holes. If he doesn't improve significantly... and many of those same holes remain... we have to look at the holes created specifically because we put our 150M eggs in the wrong basket. Granted, that's still on Thibs to some degree... but it's also on Taylor and the entire organization.

And mostly... on Andrew Wiggins.

Abe, while I agree with your description of Wiggins and where he is at, I can't help but question the premise that he has much if anything to do with our current situation (holes). Wig isn't making that money yet, as you have pointed out on other occasions. Starting next season his contract will undoubtedly hurt this team moving forward, but the current roster is all on Thibs. He gave out Gorgui's extension, he signed Teague, and Crawford. Those are the deals that are currently hurting this team.

I don't know who is most responsible for Wiggins getting his deal, but I have to believe Thibs signed off on it before Taylor made his decision. So far Taylor seems to have let Thibs make the moves he wanted, even letting him trade Ricky who Glen was very fond of.

Until the Houston game I still had doubt about how our offense runs. Not only did Teague speak up about the game plan, but KAT pretty much confirmed it as well when asked about the switching and lack of touches. He continually said it was important to stick to the game plan.

There is no doubt at this point, Thibs is over his head in these dual roles. I personally think he isn't even fit to be a head coach in the NBA. Thibs is similar to Adelman in that he is a system implementer. Adelman was successful with that in his early career, when players came into the league with fundamentals. In today's NBA, you have to develop players, and I don't think Thibs is willing to do that. He still hasn't taken responsibility for the game plan on Sunday, that everyone and their sister realize was a major mistake.

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Hicks, I think the problem some folks might have is that we spent the kind of money and signed the kind of contracts that doesn't make it easy to fill those holes. Thibs went all in on "winning now", but put some real constraints on future moves while at the same time constructing a roster that doesn't always seem to fit well together.

Our future moves would have been just as constrained if Thibs didn't sign anyone or if he made cheaper deals because once KATs extension kicks in that's it. Last season was the offseason to acquire enough high value assets to be flexible for deals. Not spending to near the cap last year would have been silly because the Wiggins and KAT extensions would have erased that space anyway. And we would have been in an real pickle with Lavine too if he would have played as colossally bad as he did in Chicago.

Mmmm, let me put this another way. Given the amount of churn and $ spent, fans may be didn't expect there to be this many holes. It's just a weird fitting roster he has put together and we have the same two holes we've had for the past 10 years: 3-point shooting and defense. Perhaps the coach deserves some of the blame.....

Sure. I get it. And I think Thibs deserves blame. BUT...

The long-term prospects of this team -- and how we fill holes -- rests on KAT and Wiggins.

Especially Wiggins. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a good defender. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be able to be a dominant scorer. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to develop a three point shot. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a game-changing, franchise-changing player.

There's time for that. But right now... he's not remotely close to being THAT guy. Thus, the team is littered with potential holes. If he doesn't improve significantly... and many of those same holes remain... we have to look at the holes created specifically because we put our 150M eggs in the wrong basket. Granted, that's still on Thibs to some degree... but it's also on Taylor and the entire organization.

And mostly... on Andrew Wiggins.

Abe, while I agree with your description of Wiggins and where he is at, I can't help but question the premise that he has much if anything to do with our current situation (holes). Wig isn't making that money yet, as you have pointed out on other occasions. Starting next season his contract will undoubtedly hurt this team moving forward, but the current roster is all on Thibs. He gave out Gorgui's extension, he signed Teague, and Crawford. Those are the deals that are currently hurting this team.

I don't know who is most responsible for Wiggins getting his deal, but I have to believe Thibs signed off on it before Taylor made his decision. So far Taylor seems to have let Thibs make the moves he wanted, even letting him trade Ricky who Glen was very fond of.

Until the Houston game I still had doubt about how our offense runs. Not only did Teague speak up about the game plan, but KAT pretty much confirmed it as well when asked about the switching and lack of touches. He continually said it was important to stick to the game plan.

There is no doubt at this point, Thibs is over his head in these dual roles. I personally think he isn't even fit to be a head coach in the NBA. Thibs is similar to Adelman in that he is a system implementer. Adelman was successful with that in his early career, when players came into the league with fundamentals. In today's NBA, you have to develop players, and I don't think Thibs is willing to do that. He still hasn't taken responsibility for the game plan on Sunday, that everyone and their sister realize was a major mistake.

Sure. I don't dig the dual role. Thibs is culpable. And I'm not a fan of many things about him. And the team isn't complete.

But, if we're only judging on this season... 47 wins and a 16-game improvement shouldn't be scoffed at. I think everybody agrees that the Butler, Gibson and Teague moves were part of that improvement.

As for Wiggins... I try to bring up the contract only when we're looking at the future of the team... like I did here.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Hicks, I think the problem some folks might have is that we spent the kind of money and signed the kind of contracts that doesn't make it easy to fill those holes. Thibs went all in on "winning now", but put some real constraints on future moves while at the same time constructing a roster that doesn't always seem to fit well together.

Our future moves would have been just as constrained if Thibs didn't sign anyone or if he made cheaper deals because once KATs extension kicks in that's it. Last season was the offseason to acquire enough high value assets to be flexible for deals. Not spending to near the cap last year would have been silly because the Wiggins and KAT extensions would have erased that space anyway. And we would have been in an real pickle with Lavine too if he would have played as colossally bad as he did in Chicago.

Mmmm, let me put this another way. Given the amount of churn and $ spent, fans may be didn't expect there to be this many holes. It's just a weird fitting roster he has put together and we have the same two holes we've had for the past 10 years: 3-point shooting and defense. Perhaps the coach deserves some of the blame.....

Sure. I get it. And I think Thibs deserves blame. BUT...

The long-term prospects of this team -- and how we fill holes -- rests on KAT and Wiggins.

Especially Wiggins. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a good defender. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be able to be a dominant scorer. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to develop a three point shot. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a game-changing, franchise-changing player.

There's time for that. But right now... he's not remotely close to being THAT guy. Thus, the team is littered with potential holes. If he doesn't improve significantly... and many of those same holes remain... we have to look at the holes created specifically because we put our 150M eggs in the wrong basket. Granted, that's still on Thibs to some degree... but it's also on Taylor and the entire organization.

And mostly... on Andrew Wiggins.

Abe, while I agree with your description of Wiggins and where he is at, I can't help but question the premise that he has much if anything to do with our current situation (holes). Wig isn't making that money yet, as you have pointed out on other occasions. Starting next season his contract will undoubtedly hurt this team moving forward, but the current roster is all on Thibs. He gave out Gorgui's extension, he signed Teague, and Crawford. Those are the deals that are currently hurting this team.

I don't know who is most responsible for Wiggins getting his deal, but I have to believe Thibs signed off on it before Taylor made his decision. So far Taylor seems to have let Thibs make the moves he wanted, even letting him trade Ricky who Glen was very fond of.

Until the Houston game I still had doubt about how our offense runs. Not only did Teague speak up about the game plan, but KAT pretty much confirmed it as well when asked about the switching and lack of touches. He continually said it was important to stick to the game plan.

There is no doubt at this point, Thibs is over his head in these dual roles. I personally think he isn't even fit to be a head coach in the NBA. Thibs is similar to Adelman in that he is a system implementer. Adelman was successful with that in his early career, when players came into the league with fundamentals. In today's NBA, you have to develop players, and I don't think Thibs is willing to do that. He still hasn't taken responsibility for the game plan on Sunday, that everyone and their sister realize was a major mistake.

Sure. I don't dig the dual role. Thibs is culpable. And I'm not a fan of many things about him. And the team isn't complete.

But, if we're only judging on this season... 47 wins and a 16-game improvement shouldn't be scoffed at. I think everybody agrees that the Butler, Gibson and Teague moves were part of that improvement.

As for Wiggins... I try to bring up the contract only when we're looking at the future of the team... like I did here.

My point is that the ship has already sailed on filling holes, and I am not on board including teague as part of the improvement. I think we would have had a better defense and likely a better offense too, if we had held on to Ricky. I think the first round pick will be needed to move Gorgui's contract.

When judging the season, I don't think it is relevant how many wins we had last year. We used all of our ammo over the last two years to improve to an eighth seed. I think we do have enough to be a contender talent wise, but not with roster makeup currently. Thibs continue to prove that the game has passed him by, and seems too stubborn to make the needed adjustments. I am not holding my breath.

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Hicks, I think the problem some folks might have is that we spent the kind of money and signed the kind of contracts that doesn't make it easy to fill those holes. Thibs went all in on "winning now", but put some real constraints on future moves while at the same time constructing a roster that doesn't always seem to fit well together.

Our future moves would have been just as constrained if Thibs didn't sign anyone or if he made cheaper deals because once KATs extension kicks in that's it. Last season was the offseason to acquire enough high value assets to be flexible for deals. Not spending to near the cap last year would have been silly because the Wiggins and KAT extensions would have erased that space anyway. And we would have been in an real pickle with Lavine too if he would have played as colossally bad as he did in Chicago.

Mmmm, let me put this another way. Given the amount of churn and $ spent, fans may be didn't expect there to be this many holes. It's just a weird fitting roster he has put together and we have the same two holes we've had for the past 10 years: 3-point shooting and defense. Perhaps the coach deserves some of the blame.....

Sure. I get it. And I think Thibs deserves blame. BUT...

The long-term prospects of this team -- and how we fill holes -- rests on KAT and Wiggins.

Especially Wiggins. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a good defender. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be able to be a dominant scorer. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to develop a three point shot. He's the max contract guy who's supposed to be a game-changing, franchise-changing player.

There's time for that. But right now... he's not remotely close to being THAT guy. Thus, the team is littered with potential holes. If he doesn't improve significantly... and many of those same holes remain... we have to look at the holes created specifically because we put our 150M eggs in the wrong basket. Granted, that's still on Thibs to some degree... but it's also on Taylor and the entire organization.

And mostly... on Andrew Wiggins.

Abe, while I agree with your description of Wiggins and where he is at, I can't help but question the premise that he has much if anything to do with our current situation (holes). Wig isn't making that money yet, as you have pointed out on other occasions. Starting next season his contract will undoubtedly hurt this team moving forward, but the current roster is all on Thibs. He gave out Gorgui's extension, he signed Teague, and Crawford. Those are the deals that are currently hurting this team.

I don't know who is most responsible for Wiggins getting his deal, but I have to believe Thibs signed off on it before Taylor made his decision. So far Taylor seems to have let Thibs make the moves he wanted, even letting him trade Ricky who Glen was very fond of.

Until the Houston game I still had doubt about how our offense runs. Not only did Teague speak up about the game plan, but KAT pretty much confirmed it as well when asked about the switching and lack of touches. He continually said it was important to stick to the game plan.

There is no doubt at this point, Thibs is over his head in these dual roles. I personally think he isn't even fit to be a head coach in the NBA. Thibs is similar to Adelman in that he is a system implementer. Adelman was successful with that in his early career, when players came into the league with fundamentals. In today's NBA, you have to develop players, and I don't think Thibs is willing to do that. He still hasn't taken responsibility for the game plan on Sunday, that everyone and their sister realize was a major mistake.

Sure. I don't dig the dual role. Thibs is culpable. And I'm not a fan of many things about him. And the team isn't complete.

But, if we're only judging on this season... 47 wins and a 16-game improvement shouldn't be scoffed at. I think everybody agrees that the Butler, Gibson and Teague moves were part of that improvement.

As for Wiggins... I try to bring up the contract only when we're looking at the future of the team... like I did here.

My point is that the ship has already sailed on filling holes, and I am not on board including teague as part of the improvement. I think we would have had a better defense and likely a better offense too, if we had held on to Ricky. I think the first round pick will be needed to move Gorgui's contract.

When judging the season, I don't think it is relevant how many wins we had last year. We used all of our ammo over the last two years to improve to an eighth seed. I think we do have enough to be a contender talent wise, but not with roster makeup currently. Thibs continue to prove that the game has passed him by, and seems too stubborn to make the needed adjustments. I am not holding my breath.

If Thibs didn't make the moves when he did when was the window going to be open to acquire more talent at that scale? Next offseason Wiggins contract still would have kicked in so that lessens the cap space, we would have had no MLE. He had to strike when the iron was hot. The only alternative was to hang on to Lavine and hope to god he panned out. But what a conundrum we would have had right now had we done that and he performed the way he did this year. We be looking at signing more youth in a player who shot under 40% coming off a major knee surgery. At least we have talent like you say, if Thibs had just hung on to those assets that would be our team and it would be another year in the lottery for Wiggins, KAT, Lavine and Ricky and likely growing frustration with our players' perception of the franchise. The ships hasn't sailed on filling holes and they really aren't as big as many make them out to be as I see it. But we have talent to trade if Thibs wants to be aggressive again this offseason.

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

My point is that the ship has already sailed on filling holes, and I am not on board including teague as part of the improvement. I think we would have had a better defense and likely a better offense too, if we had held on to Ricky. I think the first round pick will be needed to move Gorgui's contract.

When judging the season, I don't think it is relevant how many wins we had last year. We used all of our ammo over the last two years to improve to an eighth seed. I think we do have enough to be a contender talent wise, but not with roster makeup currently. Thibs continue to prove that the game has passed him by, and seems too stubborn to make the needed adjustments. I am not holding my breath.

If Thibs didn't make the moves when he did when was the window going to be open to acquire more talent at that scale? Next offseason Wiggins contract still would have kicked in so that lessens the cap space, we would have had no MLE. He had to strike when the iron was hot. The only alternative was to hang on to Lavine and hope to god he panned out. But what a conundrum we would have had right now had we done that and he performed the way he did this year. We be looking at signing more youth in a player who shot under 40% coming off a major knee surgery. At least we have talent like you say, if Thibs had just hung on to those assets that would be our team and it would be another year in the lottery for Wiggins, KAT, Lavine and Ricky and likely growing frustration with our players' perception of the franchise. The ships hasn't sailed on filling holes and they really aren't as big as many make them out to be as I see it. But we have talent to trade if Thibs wants to be aggressive again this offseason.

What talent are you going to trade to make our team better? Wiggins won't bring back much with his contract starting. You are obviously not talking about trading Butler or Towns. Who are we going to trade to get anything back? Belly is up for a deal. If we use our full mle we will be sitting around 125-130 mil in salary with a borderline PO team.

Signing Gorgui, Crawford, Teague, etc.. is not striking when the iron is hot.

sjm34 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

My point is that the ship has already sailed on filling holes, and I am not on board including teague as part of the improvement. I think we would have had a better defense and likely a better offense too, if we had held on to Ricky. I think the first round pick will be needed to move Gorgui's contract.

When judging the season, I don't think it is relevant how many wins we had last year. We used all of our ammo over the last two years to improve to an eighth seed. I think we do have enough to be a contender talent wise, but not with roster makeup currently. Thibs continue to prove that the game has passed him by, and seems too stubborn to make the needed adjustments. I am not holding my breath.

If Thibs didn't make the moves when he did when was the window going to be open to acquire more talent at that scale? Next offseason Wiggins contract still would have kicked in so that lessens the cap space, we would have had no MLE. He had to strike when the iron was hot. The only alternative was to hang on to Lavine and hope to god he panned out. But what a conundrum we would have had right now had we done that and he performed the way he did this year. We be looking at signing more youth in a player who shot under 40% coming off a major knee surgery. At least we have talent like you say, if Thibs had just hung on to those assets that would be our team and it would be another year in the lottery for Wiggins, KAT, Lavine and Ricky and likely growing frustration with our players' perception of the franchise. The ships hasn't sailed on filling holes and they really aren't as big as many make them out to be as I see it. But we have talent to trade if Thibs wants to be aggressive again this offseason.

What talent are you going to trade to make our team better? Wiggins won't bring back much with his contract starting. You are obviously not talking about trading Butler or Towns. Who are we going to trade to get anything back? Belly is up for a deal. If we use our full mle we will be sitting around 125-130 mil in salary with a borderline PO team.

Signing Gorgui, Crawford, Teague, etc.. is not striking when the iron is hot.

Teague, and Taj provided improvement at their positions based on our production last year. Crawford hasn't been consistent and is problematic but was cheap. Teague, Tyus, Gourgi the pick could all be used to acquire more suitable talent at this point. Like I said I don't think we're that far off from having a well balanced team. If we are going to compete we still need WIggins and Towns to improve. Our main problem in terms of balance this year was our bench play, I don't think it's going to be too much of a stretch to add a few suitable wings to shore up the bench even if we lost Belly.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Has Minnesota ever been a buyout destination? I think Thibs has done as good as any GM we've had at getting free agents here.

Here's my point. It's one thing to sign free agents by giving them a lot of money that few if any other teams are willing to offer and with the understanding that they will be starters - namely Teague and Taj. It's another thing to attract and sign lower-priced quality rotation players. Thibs succeeded in the former, but has failed in the latter. Honestly, if you were an NBA player looking to sign somewhere for minimum money, would you want to play for a head coach who (1) has a reputation for not spreading playing time around beyond his starters and maybe one or two others, and (2) who is constantly yelling at you and telling you what to do on every single possession? Thibs' approach/style as a head coach has to make it harder for him to attract free agents and that's a legitimate concern. But again, I'd be far more concerned if we were to learn that Thibs didn't even pursue or failed to aggressively pursue/recruit Belinelli or Ilyasova.

It's a concern that you are completely making up. That may be your opinion and you're entitled to it but there is zero evidence that free agents don't want to come here yet. If next year we can't get someone for the MLE and bi-annual exemption I'm all ears. For now Thibs signed Teague Taj, Crawford, and Rose with little trouble.

For all of the yelling and histrionics and bull-headedness we perceive from Thibs... Jamal Crawford... one of the most free-spirited players/gunners in recent NBA history signed here.

And he's been given freedom to do virtually anything he wants via the stats + eye test.

Do you know who leads the team in shot attempts per minute?
1. Derrick Rose
2. Jamal Crawford

Now... we can have an entirely different conversation about WHY this is one of the worst developments in recent NBA history considering that KAT is 6th on the team for shots per minute despite shooting 55/42/86.

But let's leave that for this summer... or after tonight's game.

I'm the last podcast Jon K said (Abe I won't make you listen to this one) Gibson and Crawford have been big factors as leaders and helping to balance out the more intense approach by Thibs or even Butler at times. He said other than him having a significant hand in winning a few games during the season you can question his positive impact on the court but he said he has for sure a big factor this season. Remember Crawford said he wanted to come here and help a team that hadn't done it in a long time instead of going to the a team that was already a contender. I think the Wolves offered more money than one of those teams but still he seems like a fairly genuine guy.

Right now if we didn't make some of the moves Thibs did we would be staring at how much to pay Zach Lavine this summer. That's in addition to probably winning at best 37 games and being nowhere near the playoffs unless Thibs was able to use capnspace to sign a starting level Wing to play before Lavine was healthy which...seems unlikely. I could see a solid player but not anywhere near a Jimmy Butler level player that's for sure.

Thibs and Layden got one thing right last summer and that was giving out shorter term deals. Even if Teague opts into his last year of his deal he will still be an expiring which could have a lot of value especially if he is actually still a pretty good player.

As for the speculation about players staying away from Thibs it's a fair speculation which I have made also. We don't know if it's a thing or not. There are players that have not gone to various teams for whatever reason. Some players avoid some cities because their wife doesn't want to live there. Lots of stuff goes into why some guys pick one spot over another. I know Wolfson isn't too highly regarded around here but FWIW he did report the Wolves called about Marco when it was clear he was going to get bought out. He played for Thibs so he was one of his guys right? Lol