Game Report: I have seen the light!

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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

lipoli390 wrote:
longstrangetrip wrote:
BizarroJerry wrote:
60WinTim wrote:Going back to Sam and his coaching staff. I am sure they are good at certain aspects of coaching and teaching. But they are simply out of their league up at the NBA level. Here is one example that bugged me at the end of the Clipper game. Up by 3, Doc chose to intentionally foul us to prevent a 3-pointer. But we could have turned the tables by having someone foul Deandre Jordan on the rebound attempt of the 2nd free throw (even though we made it). This would have given us the 2 points and put Jordan at the FT line which is way better than fouling whoever received the ball on the inbound attempt.

I think I saw Miami do it early this year, and Doc used it to beat Detroit in OT last week. But this tactic completely escaped Mitchell and his staff. They are out of their league.


Yep, and for LST and others who point to him winning coach of the year 10 years ago, so what? I was a lot better at many things 10 years ago too. He's gotta go after this year.


I would argue that coaching a basketball team is different than sexual performance (that is what you were referring to, right :) )...coaching skills shouldn't fall off a cliff between 42 and 52 like other things might. Sam's style of coaching is all about hard work and defense, and those things are relevant in any era... and he managed to overachieve with a horrible roster in Toronto applying those principles. Unless he has suffered a stroke in the past decade that hasn't been disclosed, he's the same coach at 52 that he was at 42...and that coach was considered the best coach in basketball that year.


Sam was fired the year after winning coach of the year. There are things called flukes. That's how I see his one good season with the Raptors.

Flip had a track record of multiple seasons overachieving and getting plus 50-win seasons, yet last year many questioned his ability to coach in today's NBA. Sam had one 48-win season 20 years ago and was fired the next season. That's a pretty week case for Sam. I think getting canned the season after his good (not great) season is telling.

Sam's so-called strength - defense - doesn't hold up as a credible defense given this team's epically poor defense over the last 2+ weeks.


I get the concept of a fluke, but I find it a stretch to label an entire season a fluke! Just nine years ago, Sam won 47 games and COY honors with these five guys playing the most minutes:

22-year-old Chris Bosh
Anthony Parker
TJ Ford
Jorge Garbajosa
Rasho Nesterovic

It's difficult for me to imagine that lineup winning 15 games, much less 47. I think it does Mitchell a huge disservice to label that performance a "fluke"... "extraordinary overachieving" would be a much fairer and accurate description. And just to get an idea about his competition that year, let's look at the team that Pat Riley won 44 games with:

Dwyane Wade
Udonis Haslem
Jason Wiliams
Eddie Jones
Shaquille O'Neal
(and Gary Peyton and Alonzo Mourning on the bench!)

Now honestly, which of those squads do you think had more talent? And yet Sam won 3 more games.

Yes, Sam got fired two years later, but we all know that story...it had little to do with winning, and more to do with the knuckleheads on that roster that didn't like Sam questioning their toughness. And how did firing Sam work out for the Raptors? Well, they were 8-9 at the time of Sam's firing, and went 25-40 the rest of the way...more evidence that Sam gets his players to overachieve. I suspect the same thing will happen here if Glen listens to the anti-Sam crowd and hires his fourth head coach in 4 years...that's not how to create a stable environment for our young studs.

Now, I'm hearing support for firing Sam and hiring a guy who is about to be fired for underachieving with the Memphis Grizzlies. Mitchell has made this unbalanced roster of 20 and 40 year olds competitive in every game this year except last night's Denver game (we even got within 5 of Golden State late in the game). In contrast, Joerger's team has been blown out by double digits 11 times this year (no wonder he's about to be fired!). You win with players in the NBA, and while the Wolves roster has as much long-term potential as any in the league, there's a reason Vegas pegged them for 26 wins this year...they're clearly not ready yet. The hatred and irrational criticism of almost every move Sam makes is a phenomenon that I really struggle to understand. Maybe if we had 11 double digit losses like Memphis does I could understand it, but we have 4! I honestly don't get it.
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

LST- I don't understand why the Sam bashing is difficult to understand. He has yet to start the best lineup this team has to offer. He has cost us several games with his coaching tactics either leaving lineups in too long or relying on guys like Martin and Prince to win him games in the first place. This team hasn't overachieved. We just lost back to back games against the craptastic Nuggets and Knicks. You have to win 1 of those 2 games with the talent we have. He doesn't deserve credit and leash for something he did a decade ago. That's utter ridiculous to do at this point and he simply doesn't deserve breaks for mistakes he makes today because of something he accomplished a decade ago. He's a bottom 10 coach in the league. There's a reason he didn't get HC offers after his time in Toronto. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about his coaching. You're literally the only one on here defending him night in and night out. Don't you think a better coach would have more than 1 supporter on his side on a fan board? If you want to keep defending him so be it, but we're getting further and further away from .500 basically every game we play and we're the 5th worst team in the league right now with a point differential that suggests our record should be a decent chunk better than it is. Overachieving is no longer a term that be used when describing his coaching job.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by Lipoli390 »

LST - No one makes the case for Sam better than you. Let me clarify for the record that I'm not necessarily on board with the idea of hiring Joerger. I was high on him before the season started, but I'm troubled by what's happening in Memphis this season and I haven't watched enough of him to know nearby as much as I know about Sam. Moreover, Joerger doesn't have a long track record to assess.

I've seen enough of Sam to conclude he's not the guy I want at the helm going forward after this season. What his team did one season 10 years ago doesn't persuade me otherwise.

As for who should replace him, I don't know. Obviously I'd love to have Rick Carlisle or Greg Popovich as our HC, but that's not going to happen. Perhaps a current or former Popovich assistant. JVG? Calipari? Maybe find the next Brad Stevens? Or perhaps Joerger is the right guy. I'd say that Memphis overachieved last season so perhaps their finding their level.

To be a good head coach in today's NBA I think you have to be smart. I just don't think Sam has the smarts to be a good NBA HC.
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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by SameOldNudityDrew »

Two thoughts.

1. I lean toward LST on Sam here. I think he's getting a pretty bad rap by the board lately. He's improved our defense, though it's been worse lately for various reasons that largely have to do with the players. He made the risky call to start Prince and we were actually better for it. He switched it up and started Martin, who was cold and everybody bashed him for it, but then he's been pretty good lately and now we're shopping him--so maybe this was part of the plan. He's got a roster problem with a ton of wings and no quality backup PG so I can understand playing Zach at the 1 (though I think there's a better plan), and he's started to move away from that. And c'mon, we're bashing him because he's not well-spoken? Know who was well-spoken? Kahn. Want him back? By the way, his "we play basketball, but we're not playing basketball" quote actually makes sense. I'm an English teacher, and the first verb tense "we play basketball" is the present simple tense, meaning something one does in general, and the second tense "not playing" is the present continuous tense, meaning what one is doing at the moment. And we're not really playing (good) basketball now. It actually makes sense to me.

Also, this is a transition year and Sam is the transition coach. We're not really expecting to make the playoffs this year, it's all about developing a strong culture, identity, and talent. And I like how Sam deals with the players, especially with KG here. It's like the two of them are almost co-coaches. I like the intensity they have been instilling in the young guys, even if we're not consistently playing well. Do you really think the benefits of hiring a guy mid-way through the season would outweigh the negatives of undercutting your coach and most important veteran (and possible future owner) for half a season? No way. I'd definitely open a search for a permanent coach next year, but firing Sam mid-season would be a dumb move.

2. Tim, what the what, Dieng can't shoot?! Where's your opDOUGism? He's one of the best FT shooters in the game (ranked 3rd of all players in the entire league who get more than 2 FTs a game), and his midrange jumper is great. He's ranked 7th for midrange FG% among centers in the league who shoot more than 1 midrange jumper per game (thank you NBA.com!). Who's number 6 by the way? Rhymes with Farl-Kanthony Gowns.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

khans2k5 wrote:LST- I don't understand why the Sam bashing is difficult to understand. He has yet to start the best lineup this team has to offer. He has cost us several games with his coaching tactics either leaving lineups in too long or relying on guys like Martin and Prince to win him games in the first place. This team hasn't overachieved. We just lost back to back games against the craptastic Nuggets and Knicks. You have to win 1 of those 2 games with the talent we have. He doesn't deserve credit and leash for something he did a decade ago. That's utter ridiculous to do at this point and he simply doesn't deserve breaks for mistakes he makes today because of something he accomplished a decade ago. He's a bottom 10 coach in the league. There's a reason he didn't get HC offers after his time in Toronto. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about his coaching. You're literally the only one on here defending him night in and night out. Don't you think a better coach would have more than 1 supporter on his side on a fan board? If you want to keep defending him so be it, but we're getting further and further away from .500 basically every game we play and we're the 5th worst team in the league right now with a point differential that suggests our record should be a decent chunk better than it is. Overachieving is no longer a term that be used when describing his coaching job.


Khans, it's the intensity, imbalance and personal aspect of the Sam-bashing that is difficult for me to understand, and seems out of character for the usual high level of discourse we enjoy here. Sam is not beyond reproach as a coach, and deserves criticism for some of his moves...for instance, I'm baffled by his insistence on starting Kevin Martin during our recent swoon. But in a year with low expectations because of our reliance on players well after or well before the prime of their career, he remarkably has had us in contention in every game except this week's Denver game. If I had said before the season started that 25 games into the season we would have 7 fewer blowout losses than a healthy Memphis team, you would have said I was crazy...but here we are, and it's true. And that's what I want with this developing club...a good effort every night and not having to turn the game off or leave Target Center at halftime because I know we are not going to be blown out. That's overachieving, khans, just like he overachieved to a near ridiculous extent when he coached Toronto 7-9 years ago. I'm convinced that the vitriol expressed here for Sam has a lot more to do with his non-Minnesota personality and speaking style than his results, and that feels more like Rubechat than the high quality we usually have here.
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

longstrangetrip wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:LST- I don't understand why the Sam bashing is difficult to understand. He has yet to start the best lineup this team has to offer. He has cost us several games with his coaching tactics either leaving lineups in too long or relying on guys like Martin and Prince to win him games in the first place. This team hasn't overachieved. We just lost back to back games against the craptastic Nuggets and Knicks. You have to win 1 of those 2 games with the talent we have. He doesn't deserve credit and leash for something he did a decade ago. That's utter ridiculous to do at this point and he simply doesn't deserve breaks for mistakes he makes today because of something he accomplished a decade ago. He's a bottom 10 coach in the league. There's a reason he didn't get HC offers after his time in Toronto. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about his coaching. You're literally the only one on here defending him night in and night out. Don't you think a better coach would have more than 1 supporter on his side on a fan board? If you want to keep defending him so be it, but we're getting further and further away from .500 basically every game we play and we're the 5th worst team in the league right now with a point differential that suggests our record should be a decent chunk better than it is. Overachieving is no longer a term that be used when describing his coaching job.


Khans, it's the intensity, imbalance and personal aspect of the Sam-bashing that is difficult for me to understand, and seems out of character for the usual high level of discourse we enjoy here. Sam is not beyond reproach as a coach, and deserves criticism for some of his moves...for instance, I'm baffled by his insistence on starting Kevin Martin during our recent swoon. But in a year with low expectations because of our reliance on players well after or well before the prime of their career, he remarkably has had us in contention in every game except this week's Denver game. If I had said before the season started that 25 games into the season we would have 7 fewer blowout losses than a healthy Memphis team, you would have said I was crazy...but here we are, and it's true. And that's what I want with this developing club...a good effort every night and not having to turn the game off or leave Target Center at halftime because I know we are not going to be blown out. That's overachieving, khans, just like he overachieved to a near ridiculous extent when he coached Toronto 7-9 years ago. I'm convinced that the vitriol expressed here for Sam has a lot more to do with his non-Minnesota personality and speaking style than his results, and that feels more like Rubechat than the high quality we usually have here.


Well I can assure you that when you see vitriol from me, know that it is 100% due to Sam being a stubborn SOB when it comes to Zach both starting and being the long-term answer for us at the two. He's jerking around our 3rd highest value asset for the likes of Martin and Prince. That's simply terrible coaching and inexcusable on a team supposedly playing for development.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

khans2k5 wrote:
longstrangetrip wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:LST- I don't understand why the Sam bashing is difficult to understand. He has yet to start the best lineup this team has to offer. He has cost us several games with his coaching tactics either leaving lineups in too long or relying on guys like Martin and Prince to win him games in the first place. This team hasn't overachieved. We just lost back to back games against the craptastic Nuggets and Knicks. You have to win 1 of those 2 games with the talent we have. He doesn't deserve credit and leash for something he did a decade ago. That's utter ridiculous to do at this point and he simply doesn't deserve breaks for mistakes he makes today because of something he accomplished a decade ago. He's a bottom 10 coach in the league. There's a reason he didn't get HC offers after his time in Toronto. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about his coaching. You're literally the only one on here defending him night in and night out. Don't you think a better coach would have more than 1 supporter on his side on a fan board? If you want to keep defending him so be it, but we're getting further and further away from .500 basically every game we play and we're the 5th worst team in the league right now with a point differential that suggests our record should be a decent chunk better than it is. Overachieving is no longer a term that be used when describing his coaching job.


Khans, it's the intensity, imbalance and personal aspect of the Sam-bashing that is difficult for me to understand, and seems out of character for the usual high level of discourse we enjoy here. Sam is not beyond reproach as a coach, and deserves criticism for some of his moves...for instance, I'm baffled by his insistence on starting Kevin Martin during our recent swoon. But in a year with low expectations because of our reliance on players well after or well before the prime of their career, he remarkably has had us in contention in every game except this week's Denver game. If I had said before the season started that 25 games into the season we would have 7 fewer blowout losses than a healthy Memphis team, you would have said I was crazy...but here we are, and it's true. And that's what I want with this developing club...a good effort every night and not having to turn the game off or leave Target Center at halftime because I know we are not going to be blown out. That's overachieving, khans, just like he overachieved to a near ridiculous extent when he coached Toronto 7-9 years ago. I'm convinced that the vitriol expressed here for Sam has a lot more to do with his non-Minnesota personality and speaking style than his results, and that feels more like Rubechat than the high quality we usually have here.


Well I can assure you that when you see vitriol from me, know that it is 100% due to Sam being a stubborn SOB when it comes to Zach both starting and being the long-term answer for us at the two. He's jerking around our 3rd highest value asset for the likes of Martin and Prince. That's simply terrible coaching and inexcusable on a team supposedly playing for development.


And yet Zach is far and away the most improved player on the roster this year, and I give Sam some credit for that by letting him touch the ball as much as possible Mitchell detractors will say that Zach would have taken even a bigger leap if Sam had played him only at SG and maybe he would have. But we don't know that he would have, and I'm more comfortable talking about what has actually happened rather than what could have happened. Zach currently ranks 17th among PGs in PER, VA and EWA...virtually tied with Ricky Rubio. That's an enormous jump over his poor numbers last year, which generally ranked at the bottom by almost any measure. I have a difficult time concluding that Sam has had anything other than an enormous positive impact on Zach's development
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fondey [enjin:6644772]
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by fondey [enjin:6644772] »

https://soundcloud.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/ep-41-nba-nfl-w-joe-house-jacko

Here's some of Simmons' perspective on the Wolves' season. It starts at the 17 minute mark.
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
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Re: Game Report: I have seen the light!

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

longstrangetrip wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:
longstrangetrip wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:LST- I don't understand why the Sam bashing is difficult to understand. He has yet to start the best lineup this team has to offer. He has cost us several games with his coaching tactics either leaving lineups in too long or relying on guys like Martin and Prince to win him games in the first place. This team hasn't overachieved. We just lost back to back games against the craptastic Nuggets and Knicks. You have to win 1 of those 2 games with the talent we have. He doesn't deserve credit and leash for something he did a decade ago. That's utter ridiculous to do at this point and he simply doesn't deserve breaks for mistakes he makes today because of something he accomplished a decade ago. He's a bottom 10 coach in the league. There's a reason he didn't get HC offers after his time in Toronto. That alone should tell you everything you need to know about his coaching. You're literally the only one on here defending him night in and night out. Don't you think a better coach would have more than 1 supporter on his side on a fan board? If you want to keep defending him so be it, but we're getting further and further away from .500 basically every game we play and we're the 5th worst team in the league right now with a point differential that suggests our record should be a decent chunk better than it is. Overachieving is no longer a term that be used when describing his coaching job.


Khans, it's the intensity, imbalance and personal aspect of the Sam-bashing that is difficult for me to understand, and seems out of character for the usual high level of discourse we enjoy here. Sam is not beyond reproach as a coach, and deserves criticism for some of his moves...for instance, I'm baffled by his insistence on starting Kevin Martin during our recent swoon. But in a year with low expectations because of our reliance on players well after or well before the prime of their career, he remarkably has had us in contention in every game except this week's Denver game. If I had said before the season started that 25 games into the season we would have 7 fewer blowout losses than a healthy Memphis team, you would have said I was crazy...but here we are, and it's true. And that's what I want with this developing club...a good effort every night and not having to turn the game off or leave Target Center at halftime because I know we are not going to be blown out. That's overachieving, khans, just like he overachieved to a near ridiculous extent when he coached Toronto 7-9 years ago. I'm convinced that the vitriol expressed here for Sam has a lot more to do with his non-Minnesota personality and speaking style than his results, and that feels more like Rubechat than the high quality we usually have here.


Well I can assure you that when you see vitriol from me, know that it is 100% due to Sam being a stubborn SOB when it comes to Zach both starting and being the long-term answer for us at the two. He's jerking around our 3rd highest value asset for the likes of Martin and Prince. That's simply terrible coaching and inexcusable on a team supposedly playing for development.


And yet Zach is far and away the most improved player on the roster this year, and I give Sam some credit for that by letting him touch the ball as much as possible Mitchell detractors will say that Zach would have taken even a bigger leap if Sam had played him only at SG and maybe he would have. But we don't know that he would have, and I'm more comfortable talking about what has actually happened rather than what could have happened. Zach currently ranks 17th among PGs in PER, VA and EWA...virtually tied with Ricky Rubio. That's an enormous jump over his poor numbers last year, which generally ranked at the bottom by almost any measure. I have a difficult time concluding that Sam has had anything other than an enormous positive impact on Zach's development


Zach's numbers at the 2 are so much better than at the 1 that it's frankly just BS to play the we only know what's happened so there's no point thinking he could have been better off as a two. Zach's offensive and defensive stats have always pointed to him being better suited as a two. It's just a weak argument to play that card that we're not allowed to say he would have been better when he would have been moved to a position and role that play to his strengths instead of leaving him in one that plays to his weaknesses. Keep sipping the kool-aid and ignoring the stats that clearly show he would have been better at the 2 all along than the 1.
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