Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:Abe, if I'm missing the point of your thread, let me know...it wouldn't be the first time my comprehension skills came up short :).

I think you're saying "Why are we being critical of Thibs' moves just because they might hurt us down the road? After a decade and a half of losing basketball, can't we just enjoy the ride now that things are looking up?" Fair point, but I would counter with this: Why can't we have both...both winning now and building for the future? That's what the franchises we admire do.

The Butler deal already made us a very good team...I don't think anyone disputes that. Heck, Vegas has us as the 4th shortest odds in the West to win the NBA championship! But it's Thibs' subsequent moves that many of us question, as they seem to neither help us "win now" nor "build for the future".

The Rubio/Teague deal gives Teague a third year, which will force thibs to make some tough Harden-like decisions in 2019-20 while not adding much (if anything) to our ability to win now. Bad deal, and Thibs should be criticized for that.

And while I like the shortness of the Gibson deal, it looks like it may have hurt Thibs' ability to make some deals that could have helped us much more this year. Again, bad deal.

While I am on board with the title of your thread and am also looking forward to the 2018 season, I find everything Thibs has done since the A+ Butler move to be worthy of criticism.

While I would never be accused of trying to mute criticisms toward the Wolves...

I do find the recent onslaught a bit amusing. The team hasn't made the playoffs in 13 seasons... that's the 2nd longest drought in NBA history.

The team hasn't reached .500 in 12 seasons. I believe that's tied with the LA Clippers (2x) and Golden State Warriors for longest streaks in NBA history.

The team is coming off a very disappointing 51-loss campaign. A bunch of other Western Conference teams are making bold moves to improve this offseason. Yet, the Wolves are considered a probable playoff team.

Was it all because of one really good move and a few questionable ones? Maybe.

But the team is still poised to break two of the most embarrassing NBA streaks this season. I'm going to try to enjoy it.

As for wanting the future, too... we've read for years here how if KAT and Wiggins are left alone, the Wolves are set. Well, they've been left alone. They're still here. And the Wolves are very probable to keep both here for that first extension. Now, granted, a too-fast, too-soon approach could leave the cupboards bare in a couple of years.... meh.

1. I want to see winning basketball. Finally. I'm sick of rooting for the worst franchise in NBA history.
2. The NBA is changing... quickly. The days of building internally and watching teams grow together for 10+ years are largely over... or about to. That's the new NBA business model... as well as, seemingly, the new way of thinking among a growing group of NBA players.

I've learned not to look the proverbial gift horse in the mouth. There are no sure things. And that's especially true when following a franchise that's trotted out the "The Promise of Hope" for most of its existence... annually.



[Note: To be fair, board activity inherently brings about discussion and criticisms. And that's what makes this place cool. All cool with me. I just created this thread as a reminder for us to enjoy just how much better off the team is TODAY than it was last season. Or the previous season. Or, the 10+ years before that....]

I love the thread and the discussion. But I'm with LST on this.

The Butler deal was a good one and instantly put this team into playoff contention. There's an argument that the maturation of our youth combined with a full year under Thibs and the addition of FA talent using the full $25 million in cap space we had would have gotten us into contention. But the Butler deal was the sure bet to get us there.

Nevertheless, as LST pointed out, Thibs' subsequent moves are at least highly questionable.

RUBIO/TEAGUE:

I'm not too put off by the combined Rubio/Teague transaction because I see the value in having a PG who we pose an offensive threat and in having a 1st round pick next year. But I am troubled by the step back defensively and on the boards in swapping Rubio for Teague and at age 26 going on 27, Ricky is just entering his prime. I'm also troubled by Teague's contract, which gives him an option on a 3rd year, thereby undermining what otherwise appears to be a 2-year strategy to "go for it" over the next 2 years while maintaining flexibility to quickly retool around KAT and Wiggins immediately thereafter. The Teague deal gets even worse from my perspective if we use the OKC pick for the likes of a CJ Miles.

TAJ GIBSON

As I've mentioned in other posts, the Taj contract is the one that really gets me. It strikes me as a big mistake. Coaches like to say, "it's the little things." Thibs would be the first to say that in his role as head coach. He got the "big thing" right with the Butler deal. But I think he's missed on some little things and it's those little things that often make the difference between good and great, between lottery and playoffs or between 8th seed and 5th seed. The Taj signing is one of those little but important things in my view. It's important now, however, that Thibs not compound that mistake with another by trading the OKC pick to get CJ Miles or someone comparable who we could have signed as a FA if we had held off on giving $14 million per year to Taj Gibson.

TheFuture wrote:I don't understand the rim protection argument for Taj, at 54.5%. I'll add, I'm not great at sifting through the NBA.com stats as there is tons to look at. But this isn't Taj from 4 years ago we are talking about.

Talk about his close out ability, fine. Talk about his familiarity with this defense and the "magic mentor potion", fine. But this idea that he is some savant at the rim and is perfect next to KAT is quite a carried away stretch.

khans2k5 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:I don't understand the rim protection argument for Taj, at 54.5%. I'll add, I'm not great at sifting through the NBA.com stats as there is tons to look at. But this isn't Taj from 4 years ago we are talking about.

Talk about his close out ability, fine. Talk about his familiarity with this defense and the "magic mentor potion", fine. But this idea that he is some savant at the rim and is perfect next to KAT is quite a carried away stretch.

What is the rim protection stat you are looking at? G gave up 60% from less than 6ft to Taj's 53% when I looked it up on nbadotcom. That's a massive difference. Taj isn't Gobert, but his 53% is significantly better than Towns' 59% and G's 60%.

khans2k5 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:I don't understand the rim protection argument for Taj, at 54.5%. I'll add, I'm not great at sifting through the NBA.com stats as there is tons to look at. But this isn't Taj from 4 years ago we are talking about.

Talk about his close out ability, fine. Talk about his familiarity with this defense and the "magic mentor potion", fine. But this idea that he is some savant at the rim and is perfect next to KAT is quite a carried away stretch.

What is the rim protection stat you are looking at? G gave up 60% from less than 6ft to Taj's 53% when I looked it up on nbadotcom. That's a massive difference. Taj isn't Gobert, but his 53% is significantly better than Towns' 59% and G's 60%.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:
We lost SO many games down the stretch last year. Why? I think it's that we just couldn't ever get stops when we needed them, and we always screwed it up in crunch time. I think the additions of Teague and Gibson will give us a steady presence on both ends that could make a bigger difference than their individual talent suggests.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:I don't understand the rim protection argument for Taj, at 54.5%. I'll add, I'm not great at sifting through the NBA.com stats as there is tons to look at. But this isn't Taj from 4 years ago we are talking about.

Talk about his close out ability, fine. Talk about his familiarity with this defense and the "magic mentor potion", fine. But this idea that he is some savant at the rim and is perfect next to KAT is quite a carried away stretch.

What is the rim protection stat you are looking at? G gave up 60% from less than 6ft to Taj's 53% when I looked it up on nbadotcom. That's a massive difference. Taj isn't Gobert, but his 53% is significantly better than Towns' 59% and G's 60%.

Better than Gorgui or the 21-year old KAT isn't the standard I'd use. Truth is, rim protection is not Gibson's strong suit and he's not fairly described as a rim-protector, especially at this point in his career. I think that's all Future was saying and I agree. That doesn't take away from Gibson's many strengths -- his toughness, his overall defense, his efficient inside scoring, his mentoring and his decent rebounding.

Shumway wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:
We lost SO many games down the stretch last year. Why? I think it's that we just couldn't ever get stops when we needed them, and we always screwed it up in crunch time. I think the additions of Teague and Gibson will give us a steady presence on both ends that could make a bigger difference than their individual talent suggests.

I think this is the key point right here. I feel that we really underperformed for our level of talent last year. We built so many large leads that we just gave away. We had to be doing something right to build those leads. We really played some great basketball. But lacked something to piece it altogether and get the wins. I think the moves we made really help us in addressing that issue. Additional defence, veteran leadership, and a more conventional point guard for closing out games (I honestly can't make up my mind about whether Rubio genuinely hindered us closing games, but it was at very least a reasonable concern).

Overall, some great discussion here. I find it interesting that most of us agree on most things... but still come to very different conclusions when added altogether.
Butler deal - Home Run (despite being sorry to see some of the young pieces go).
Rubio for Teague - Somewhat sideways, additional salary, but more conventional skillset.
Gibson deal - paid too much, but a nice piece and adds something that we have lacked.

Shumway wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:
We lost SO many games down the stretch last year. Why? I think it's that we just couldn't ever get stops when we needed them, and we always screwed it up in crunch time. I think the additions of Teague and Gibson will give us a steady presence on both ends that could make a bigger difference than their individual talent suggests.

I think this is the key point right here. I feel that we really underperformed for our level of talent last year. We built so many large leads that we just gave away. We had to be doing something right to build those leads. We really played some great basketball. But lacked something to piece it altogether and get the wins. I think the moves we made really help us in addressing that issue. Additional defence, veteran leadership, and a more conventional point guard for closing out games (I honestly can't make up my mind about whether Rubio genuinely hindered us closing games, but it was at very least a reasonable concern).

Overall, some great discussion here. I find it interesting that most of us agree on most things... but still come to very different conclusions when added altogether.
Butler deal - Home Run (despite being sorry to see some of the young pieces go).
Rubio for Teague - Somewhat sideways, additional salary, but more conventional skillset.
Gibson deal - paid too much, but a nice piece and adds something that we have lacked.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:I don't understand the rim protection argument for Taj, at 54.5%. I'll add, I'm not great at sifting through the NBA.com stats as there is tons to look at. But this isn't Taj from 4 years ago we are talking about.

Talk about his close out ability, fine. Talk about his familiarity with this defense and the "magic mentor potion", fine. But this idea that he is some savant at the rim and is perfect next to KAT is quite a carried away stretch.

What is the rim protection stat you are looking at? G gave up 60% from less than 6ft to Taj's 53% when I looked it up on nbadotcom. That's a massive difference. Taj isn't Gobert, but his 53% is significantly better than Towns' 59% and G's 60%.

Better than Gorgui or the 21-year old KAT isn't the standard I'd use. Truth is, rim protection is not Gibson's strong suit and he's not fairly described as a rim-protector, especially at this point in his career. I think that's all Future was saying and I agree. That doesn't take away from Gibson's many strengths -- his toughness, his overall defense, his efficient inside scoring, his mentoring and his decent rebounding.